So I got to thinking about the whole salary thing, and had read through some of the posts regarding pay as a commercial pilot. Most agree that wages are way too low.
But what would be considered a reasonable wage? Obviously we all require the same skills to pass the tests, but many flying operations vary greatly for the application of those skills. Most flying involves a whole lot more than just stick and rudder skills.
So what is a fair and honest wage? For example, you're an instructor or a medevac pilot. How much do you think you deserve? Or what about fire-fighting operations or charter? What are you worth?
Perhaps that is a start. If nothing else, it'll hopefully create some good discussion.
Reasonable Wages?
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Switchfoot
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wallypilot
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Wages for professionals in every industry are dictated, to a degree, by market conditions, so it is difficult to answer your question. In those other industries there are a couple of key differences from aviation. Margins are much better, and there is not a flood of potential employees. Don't kid yourself. The aviation industry has a glut of pilots on the market, experienced and inexperienced. So, answering your question is very difficult, because all a person really needs is enough to live compfortably and have some on the side for savings/trips/toys, whatever. After that, the market normally determines what you can get. Does a hot shot lawyer really need to make six or seven figures? No. But they do because their services are in demand, and there are VERY HIGH margins in the legal industry.
Of course there are always a couple initial years in every career path where you earn less than enough to make you comfortable, but that usually changes after a couple of years and you may even have enough to take that nice trip to europe...blah blah blah. The thing is in aviation, the market conditions have caused there to be more low earning years before the decent paycheques start to come in. Why is that? 2 1/2 reasons: reason 1: the glut of pilots on the market, reason 2: public's demand for low airfares, and the market's demand for low transportation costs which leads to reason 2 1/2 which is the low margins that so many operators are subject to. Now, look at where the good wages are, and look at the margins in those lines of work. Fire suppresion, spray/geophys/photo work (well, most photo guys anyways), and a few other niche applications like international a/c ferrying, etc. These all have good margins if the company is run well. Westjet obviously has decent wages as well, but not compared to most other major airlines. we have to compare apples to apples here. (not slaggin WJ....just making an observation). Of course there is one anomaly: AC...but that is a union issue.
to answer the question: Full Time Flight instructors, Navajo FO's & Low time 1900 FO, etc: at least $2000 per month.
Medevac Capt: ie Lear or KA: at least $4000/month.
Charter/Sched captains: Navajo & Similar; at least $3000/month
1900 & simliar: at least $4000/month
Those are my ideas of minimums assuming someone meets the qualifications and experience to be in those positions.
Disclaimer:
Definitely higher commensurate with experience. Also, these are all just numbers off the top of my head, and not a complete list, and possibly subject to possible revision after some further consideration.
IMHO.
-wp
Of course there are always a couple initial years in every career path where you earn less than enough to make you comfortable, but that usually changes after a couple of years and you may even have enough to take that nice trip to europe...blah blah blah. The thing is in aviation, the market conditions have caused there to be more low earning years before the decent paycheques start to come in. Why is that? 2 1/2 reasons: reason 1: the glut of pilots on the market, reason 2: public's demand for low airfares, and the market's demand for low transportation costs which leads to reason 2 1/2 which is the low margins that so many operators are subject to. Now, look at where the good wages are, and look at the margins in those lines of work. Fire suppresion, spray/geophys/photo work (well, most photo guys anyways), and a few other niche applications like international a/c ferrying, etc. These all have good margins if the company is run well. Westjet obviously has decent wages as well, but not compared to most other major airlines. we have to compare apples to apples here. (not slaggin WJ....just making an observation). Of course there is one anomaly: AC...but that is a union issue.
to answer the question: Full Time Flight instructors, Navajo FO's & Low time 1900 FO, etc: at least $2000 per month.
Medevac Capt: ie Lear or KA: at least $4000/month.
Charter/Sched captains: Navajo & Similar; at least $3000/month
1900 & simliar: at least $4000/month
Those are my ideas of minimums assuming someone meets the qualifications and experience to be in those positions.
Disclaimer:
Definitely higher commensurate with experience. Also, these are all just numbers off the top of my head, and not a complete list, and possibly subject to possible revision after some further consideration.IMHO.
-wp
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ScudRunner
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Well we hear from all the people that think they should be paid more, how about also hearing from those who think they are paid fairly?
I for one feel I'm paid very fairly, which is well above industry standards I'm sure.
I think wallypilot's numbers are pretty good, but $24,000 a year for a King Air F/O is too little by me. In somewhere like yyc, with rent, loans, gas, insurance, and food, etc. you would be living month to month almost.
Avcanada: Can we still fill out the wage survey somewhere????
I for one feel I'm paid very fairly, which is well above industry standards I'm sure.
I think wallypilot's numbers are pretty good, but $24,000 a year for a King Air F/O is too little by me. In somewhere like yyc, with rent, loans, gas, insurance, and food, etc. you would be living month to month almost.
Avcanada: Can we still fill out the wage survey somewhere????
I'm also paid very fairly... above industry standards for a medevac Captain I think.merlin wrote:Well we hear from all the people that think they should be paid more, how about also hearing from those who think they are paid fairly?
I for one feel I'm paid very fairly, which is well above industry standards I'm sure.
I work 6 months a year, 2 weeks on call/2 weeks off averaging about 40 flight hours per 2 week block, a big raise every year for 5 years, profit sharing, and daily perdiems. The owners, management, and maintenance are top notch and great people to work with.
The environment we fly in is challenging and always keeps you on your toes but I would be happier if I lived closer to the Rockies.
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TOGA Descent
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[quote="merlin"]Well we hear from all the people that think they should be paid more, how about also hearing from those who think they are paid fairly?
I for one feel I'm paid very fairly, which is well above industry standards I'm sure.
I think wallypilot's numbers are pretty good, but $24,000 a year for a King Air F/O is too little by me. In somewhere like yyc, with rent, loans, gas, insurance, and food, etc. you would be living month to month almost.
Avcanada: Can we still fill out the wage survey somewhere????[/quote
Actually, I think 24K for a King Air F/O is reasonable. But, I tend to be a bit realistic when it comes to these things. Similarly, I believe that $250K for an A321 or 757 Captain is exorbitant! Frankly, I don’t believe those positions are worth more than 110K yearly.
So, if you consider the cost of the two different aircraft, and their respective sizes, you see that a King Air Captain is worth about 36k. A First Officer is typically worth about 70 percent of the Captains salary, which makes him/her worth 25K.
Note: I am speaking in terms of US dollars!
I for one feel I'm paid very fairly, which is well above industry standards I'm sure.
I think wallypilot's numbers are pretty good, but $24,000 a year for a King Air F/O is too little by me. In somewhere like yyc, with rent, loans, gas, insurance, and food, etc. you would be living month to month almost.
Avcanada: Can we still fill out the wage survey somewhere????[/quote
Actually, I think 24K for a King Air F/O is reasonable. But, I tend to be a bit realistic when it comes to these things. Similarly, I believe that $250K for an A321 or 757 Captain is exorbitant! Frankly, I don’t believe those positions are worth more than 110K yearly.
So, if you consider the cost of the two different aircraft, and their respective sizes, you see that a King Air Captain is worth about 36k. A First Officer is typically worth about 70 percent of the Captains salary, which makes him/her worth 25K.
Note: I am speaking in terms of US dollars!
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hey TOGA,
you want to tell me how 24K is reasonable after spending over 7 years in the industry and having a house to pay for?? I get paid much more than that as a medevac co-pilot, but I really feel for my friends who are co-joes and get paid peanuts to work hard and also have bills to pay. Also 36K for captains is crap! These wages are unacceptable for the amount of responsiblilty we undertake, but I also realize how this industry works and that things sadly wont be changing anytime soon.
you want to tell me how 24K is reasonable after spending over 7 years in the industry and having a house to pay for?? I get paid much more than that as a medevac co-pilot, but I really feel for my friends who are co-joes and get paid peanuts to work hard and also have bills to pay. Also 36K for captains is crap! These wages are unacceptable for the amount of responsiblilty we undertake, but I also realize how this industry works and that things sadly wont be changing anytime soon.
Geese... my girlfriend makes that doing Office work. And she's got average pay for her responsabilities.TOGA Descent wrote:a King Air Captain is worth about 36k
You are exactly what's wrong with our profession. You don't value your work to what it's worth.
If we follow your line of thought what should an instructor flying an old C-150 worth 18 000$ be paid ?
I disagree with your last comment, benwa. Wallypilot has nailed the issue - it's a matter of economics, not some sort of endemic mindset that all pilots seem to be suffering from. It's also not a matter of us needing to "stand up for our rights" and be tougher... It's a matter of supply and demand.
The supply for pilots far outweighs the demand (at this time). That's why all this talk about "one day all the old guys will retire and then it's our time, etc, etc," is so popular... younger/more junior pilots are dreaming of the days when the demand will not be covered by the supply and therefore our price will go up.
One of the primary rules of economics states that "a product is worth what the market will bear." As harsh as this truth is, that means that in a competitive environment, you are worth as much as someone is willing to pay you. Given the extremely competitive nature of flying in North America, the onus is truly upon us as pilots to go out of our way and find a characteristic that differentiates us from the rest of the group and in doing so makes us worth more than our competition.
While TOGA is on to an interesting calculation of salary as determined by aircraft value, I think this is only a "rule of thumb" that is observatory in nature. While pilot salary is not necessarily determined by the value of the equipment, there seems to be a relationship between the two numbers in the real world. I don't think the logic is necessarily meant to be taken (quite literally) down to the $18,000 level. Personally, I think salary levels are more directly driven by the company's mission profile, customer base, and sphere/scope of operations rather than by their equipment type.
Back to the point... Economics dictate that if you enhance your value, you make yourself worth more to the market. Believe it or not, this is not always a matter of "buying a PPC" or droning around in the circuit just to build hours. There are many more things you can do to increase your own value. Get trained in company sales procedures, become involved in the company internal training structure, do some consulting on the side, to name a few. If enhancing your skills doesn't make you more valuable to your own company, it will make you more in-demand on the open market and therefore increase your flexibility and bargaining power.
The focus in these threads always seems to turn to our having shelled out $40K (or some other huge number) on our training and how we're getting shafted in our paychecks. Many industries require extensive training, some require university, others require college or third-party training, and not all pay back those costs immediately. I think that the most important mindset anyone can take is to never let their training end. I know that's a bit cliché in the aviation world, but I am talking about the things we do beyond flying the airplane... In the legal and business worlds, if the lawyers/businesspeople don't constantly make efforts to broaden their skills beyond their own "trained" or "schooled" focus, they're going to be dead in the water. Why? Because of supply & demand.
Sorry to go on and on, but I truly believe this is a matter of economics and it's not all of us running around stabbing each other in the back or whatever other melodramatic explanations are put forth. I think the bottom line is that, if you want to be paid more, make yourself worth more. Be creative.
J
PS: Although much of this text was addressed to "you" it is not meant to be directed towards anyone in particular - that's just how I write.
The supply for pilots far outweighs the demand (at this time). That's why all this talk about "one day all the old guys will retire and then it's our time, etc, etc," is so popular... younger/more junior pilots are dreaming of the days when the demand will not be covered by the supply and therefore our price will go up.
One of the primary rules of economics states that "a product is worth what the market will bear." As harsh as this truth is, that means that in a competitive environment, you are worth as much as someone is willing to pay you. Given the extremely competitive nature of flying in North America, the onus is truly upon us as pilots to go out of our way and find a characteristic that differentiates us from the rest of the group and in doing so makes us worth more than our competition.
While TOGA is on to an interesting calculation of salary as determined by aircraft value, I think this is only a "rule of thumb" that is observatory in nature. While pilot salary is not necessarily determined by the value of the equipment, there seems to be a relationship between the two numbers in the real world. I don't think the logic is necessarily meant to be taken (quite literally) down to the $18,000 level. Personally, I think salary levels are more directly driven by the company's mission profile, customer base, and sphere/scope of operations rather than by their equipment type.
Back to the point... Economics dictate that if you enhance your value, you make yourself worth more to the market. Believe it or not, this is not always a matter of "buying a PPC" or droning around in the circuit just to build hours. There are many more things you can do to increase your own value. Get trained in company sales procedures, become involved in the company internal training structure, do some consulting on the side, to name a few. If enhancing your skills doesn't make you more valuable to your own company, it will make you more in-demand on the open market and therefore increase your flexibility and bargaining power.
The focus in these threads always seems to turn to our having shelled out $40K (or some other huge number) on our training and how we're getting shafted in our paychecks. Many industries require extensive training, some require university, others require college or third-party training, and not all pay back those costs immediately. I think that the most important mindset anyone can take is to never let their training end. I know that's a bit cliché in the aviation world, but I am talking about the things we do beyond flying the airplane... In the legal and business worlds, if the lawyers/businesspeople don't constantly make efforts to broaden their skills beyond their own "trained" or "schooled" focus, they're going to be dead in the water. Why? Because of supply & demand.
Sorry to go on and on, but I truly believe this is a matter of economics and it's not all of us running around stabbing each other in the back or whatever other melodramatic explanations are put forth. I think the bottom line is that, if you want to be paid more, make yourself worth more. Be creative.
J
PS: Although much of this text was addressed to "you" it is not meant to be directed towards anyone in particular - that's just how I write.
Someone gives you money when:
1) you create value for them (ie free market - they pay willingly), or
2) you extort money from them (eg unions - they have no choice but to pay, or go out of business).
Most people here seem to prefer door #2. I personally prefer door #1.
I might mention that as long as there is a glut of pilots, #1 is pretty tough for you to do, as a pilot - see above supply & demand comment.
I really think pilots ought to take Economics 101. They'd be a lot happier if they did.
The problem is that most pilots (eg Scare Canada) think that the company exists to provide them with overpaid jobs.
Sorry. Companies exist to make their shareholders more money than they could make in a zero-risk investment such as govt savings bonds.
Try checking the marxist-leninist theories at the door. If you understand why your company exists, and what it's doing, you're going to do a whole lot better than someone who sits around complaining the world doesn't do enough for them.
1) you create value for them (ie free market - they pay willingly), or
2) you extort money from them (eg unions - they have no choice but to pay, or go out of business).
Most people here seem to prefer door #2. I personally prefer door #1.
I might mention that as long as there is a glut of pilots, #1 is pretty tough for you to do, as a pilot - see above supply & demand comment.
I really think pilots ought to take Economics 101. They'd be a lot happier if they did.
The problem is that most pilots (eg Scare Canada) think that the company exists to provide them with overpaid jobs.
Sorry. Companies exist to make their shareholders more money than they could make in a zero-risk investment such as govt savings bonds.
Try checking the marxist-leninist theories at the door. If you understand why your company exists, and what it's doing, you're going to do a whole lot better than someone who sits around complaining the world doesn't do enough for them.
But in this situation, we can also say we are worth the pay we are willing to accept.Johnny wrote:"a product is worth what the market will bear." As harsh as this truth is, that means that in a competitive environment, you are worth as much as someone is willing to pay you.
This too is simple economics. Businesses will always try and pay the cheapest salary that suits their needs. If they go too low, they'll lose their pilots to other outfits. (so now they charge you 30K$ to make sure that doesn't happen... and some of us accept that
)I know nothing's gonna change... that's why I started my own business. If I ever find a job that gives me the pay I want, I'll go for sure. Otherwise, screw them.
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Switchfoot
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Nevermind.
Last edited by Switchfoot on Thu Jan 13, 2005 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
From an economics/market standpoint, this would be true in a scenario where there is only one job and you are the only individual on the entire market qualified to do that job.benwa wrote:But in this situation, we can also say we are worth the pay we are willing to accept.
In reality, economic theory would dictate that if someone can offer compensation for a product (in this case, your work), and the majority of the market would accept that offer, that is what the product is worth.
I'm not saying I like the downward trend, this is just my armchair analisys.
In coming down to matters such as broad-based compensation and the trends in annual salary, economics really is this simple. When you combine the factors mentioned by Wallypilot (margins, competition, etc), and the reality that many players would rather extort the money than earn it freely (as mentioned by hz2p), you could possibly argue that there is more to it than supply and demand. In my opinion, the factors I just mentioned have a more direct impact on job security and benefits/viability than they do on compensation levels.benwa wrote:This too is simple economics.
In my mind, however, I believe this to be a matter of system-wide economics. As I said in the end of my other post, if we want to be paid more, we have to make ourselves worth more.
The complaints that are expressed in so many places are only useful if they inspire us towards change. I also don't believe that some huge "pilot revolution" where we all work-to-rule is the answer (I can't stand unions or organized labour)... I think the answer is for us all to try and figure out why our value has gone down and then try to enhance that value.
benwa, the lessons/knowledge that you have acquired running your own business are very valuable... that's the kind of value-add I was talking about in my previous post. That's the type of knowledge a flying school (or other training institution) can't give - real world entrepreneurial experience.
J
If you're certain that you're not being paid what the position is really worth, tell your employer so.
If he doesn't increase what he pays you, remember you are always free to walk out the door, and quit your bitching and whining.
If he's paying you less than what the position is honestly worth, he will be unable to find someone to replace you, right? After all, why would someone else participate in such a financial transaction which is a loser for them?
Unless .... just unless ... the economics of supply and demand make the position worth less than you're willing to do it for. In which case, you are again free to walk out the door and quit your bitching and whining.
No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to fly, after all.
If he doesn't increase what he pays you, remember you are always free to walk out the door, and quit your bitching and whining.
If he's paying you less than what the position is honestly worth, he will be unable to find someone to replace you, right? After all, why would someone else participate in such a financial transaction which is a loser for them?
Unless .... just unless ... the economics of supply and demand make the position worth less than you're willing to do it for. In which case, you are again free to walk out the door and quit your bitching and whining.
No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to fly, after all.
It's good to know that at least some pilots have a basic understanding of economics. These "I deserve more"/"I'm worth more" idea's are a joke. If you don't like the wages your empolyer is offering, go work fore someone else. If you can't find an employer what will "pay me what I'm worth", start your own company, and pay all your employees, and yourself a fare wage and see how long you stay in business.
Increaseing wages without increasing productivity leads to higher unemployment. I have worked for two companies that have gone bankrupt. My current employer just had lay-off's. If we all got a 10% (or 20%) wage hike, you can bet that a lot of the companies that are just barely hanging on would end up going bankrupt, putting more people out of work. I'll gladly take $40K as a turboprop captain as opposed to being on pogey.
Increaseing wages without increasing productivity leads to higher unemployment. I have worked for two companies that have gone bankrupt. My current employer just had lay-off's. If we all got a 10% (or 20%) wage hike, you can bet that a lot of the companies that are just barely hanging on would end up going bankrupt, putting more people out of work. I'll gladly take $40K as a turboprop captain as opposed to being on pogey.
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Cat Driver
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Seeing that this is a civil conversation I would like to add my comments..
We work in a very fluid industry with signifigant ups and downs.
What you earn is more dependant on where you are at any given time and how willing you are to work in less than ideal conditions sometimes.
I managed to be in the right place at the right time to make good money almost my entire career.
However I also worked in the sectors that by the very nature of the flying was always in the higher end of the pay scale in aviation...Crop dusting...High Arctic....Fire Bombing...and overseas specialty flying including the international aircraft ferry service sector.
Of course there were lean times and I had to fly the less desireable kind of jobs such as bag runs and scheduled airline.... never did get to fly in the big jets because when I had the opportunity to do so I turned it down because I did not want to take a cut in income ......I sometimes think that was stupid though, not to mention nearsighted on my part.....
...but I am the typical pilot that just happened to be more lucky than most.
Now that I am nearing the end of my flying for a living due to becoming time expired very soon, I make very good money, my problem is I am a pilot and I spend it faster than I can make it.
So I guess each of us must just do the best we can and be prepared to work hard for what ever company we are with at the time...eventually things get better.
Cat
We work in a very fluid industry with signifigant ups and downs.
What you earn is more dependant on where you are at any given time and how willing you are to work in less than ideal conditions sometimes.
I managed to be in the right place at the right time to make good money almost my entire career.
However I also worked in the sectors that by the very nature of the flying was always in the higher end of the pay scale in aviation...Crop dusting...High Arctic....Fire Bombing...and overseas specialty flying including the international aircraft ferry service sector.
Of course there were lean times and I had to fly the less desireable kind of jobs such as bag runs and scheduled airline.... never did get to fly in the big jets because when I had the opportunity to do so I turned it down because I did not want to take a cut in income ......I sometimes think that was stupid though, not to mention nearsighted on my part.....
...but I am the typical pilot that just happened to be more lucky than most.
Now that I am nearing the end of my flying for a living due to becoming time expired very soon, I make very good money, my problem is I am a pilot and I spend it faster than I can make it.
So I guess each of us must just do the best we can and be prepared to work hard for what ever company we are with at the time...eventually things get better.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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golden hawk
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Did you guys note that TOGA's referring to US $...TOGA Descent wrote: Note: I am speaking in terms of US dollars!
using xe.com it adds up to 43K for KA Capt & 30K for F/O...If it takes 7 years to get there, it's the way the industry is built and not the fact that you actually need 7 years before being qualified for the job! Unlike a CFO or CEO for instance...They have to put in 15-20 years, sometimes more, before they actually possess the know-how...
In the business world, the rearview mirror is always clearer than the windshield...W. BuffettI did take Economics 101 and I personally think we should get rid of the marketing bean counters who think pilots are an invaluable expense.I really think pilots ought to take Economics 101. They'd be a lot happier if they did.
Anyways, let's all go flying so we can be happy again!
I really don't see what economics, has to so with it. The pilots that are working should be paid fairly, regardless of all other factor. Even if there was twice any many pilots as there is now, the ones with jobs should still be paid fairly for the work they do. If a company can't afford to pay its employee and still make money it shouldn't be in business. The question is what is fair pay for pilots and the work they do, and I don't think that should change with the number of pilots out there.
I guess I mistakenly thought that you wheel guys were making some good coin. To see that guys would be relocating just to get to $3000/mth is a real eye opener to me. I am quite satisfied to make $4000 flying DHC-2. As an aside, are you factoring in perdiems if they exist where you work?
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Vickers vanguard
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Come on ! be realistic for once !.......What you're saying above would have been valid 20 years ago in....communist Russia......merlin wrote:I really don't see what economics, has to so with it. The pilots that are working should be paid fairly, regardless of all other factor. Even if there was twice any many pilots as there is now......
