RNAV STAR procedures questions

[youngtimer]

I found the bulk of my answers in the RAC section and the TC website, but still have a couple questions that need reference info as well. First question, when can you initiate a descent to meet your first crossing restriction? It is implied and accepted that if the rnav was filed and part of your initial clearance, you fly the star, but what if the arriving controller doesn't give a descent (busy or something...). Other than waiting to ask, is there a point you can start descent. From 40k', you have to start back way before the initial point of the star...
Next question, are the US rnav procedures any different? Having just done a few in some high density us airports, there were a couple oddities that didn't seem to make sense, however there were some other circumstances that may have made for some atc modifications.

And now aside from this, I'd like to voice my frustration with ATC services in Canada, specifically Calgary, cause it's the latest example I've seen. Clear, sunny day, with all three runways in use and there were still delays and holds due to 'traffic volume'. Now I know some controllers and they do a great job which leads me to conclude it's not their choice to slow down and delay, but I do have to say that I've never had to hold in any US airports which have more traffic per hour than Calgary has in a day, with an equal number of runways to use. I would suspect NAV Can union restrictions are partly to blame and maybe lack of equipment but sometimes it's a little bit silly.

[ahramin]

Unless you have a com failure you cannot start descent without a clearance, regardless of any crossing restrictions.

[burly]

As a controller in YYC Terminal i welcome you at any time to come for a tour so you can see what we're dealing with. If you come on a tues, wed, thurs night you'll get a real good view of why we have to hold some aircraft. Our intersecting runways are a long ways from running a parallel operation but you can ask the Calgary Airports Authority why they are dragging their heels till 2014 to get the parallel runway built. Until the day there is new pavement down there you can expect a few min delay at peak traffic times. One thing to remember is that all other busy airports in Canada ( YYZ, YUL, YVR) have a bunch of staff dedicated to flow control (Traffic Management Unit TMU) . CYYC terminal controllers have none. Not much you can do when 30 kingairs from every oilpatch strip out there decides to arrive over EPLUR within 20 min of each other...... Somedays its an uphill battle down there my friend.....

On a side note we have been pushing management to get more pilots thru the ACC to see how things operate. We have a had a few company BBQ's lately where we invite the pilots in from all over the Edmonton FIR and it seems to be received quiet well. Westjet has been bringing more and more pilots thru and its always good to interact face to face to see what works for us and what works for them...

[youngtimer]

Ahramin, thanks for the input, that's what I expected but couldn't find anything for or otherwise! Any chance you would know where to look that up specifically, I still can't find AIM or CARS reference to that exact statement, however, being a pilot, I can't read too good...

Burly, I appreciate your position and having a parallel runway setup would certainly help, I just didn't realize how much til you mentioned it. I've spent a day at Edmonton center, and city center tower back in it's hayday, but never visited the approach/departure controllers. I still feel there is room for improvement, whether that be through facilities, equipment, training, staffing...etc. I have one question though, do you feel you would be qualified to work at a busy US airport? If so, then I'll spread the word to quite giving you guys so much attitude when given hold clearances. If you think it would require more training, then who do I give grief to, in order to help you get what you want? Is it Nav Can, TC, Airport authorities? I shouldn't have mentioned Calgary as the only problem, Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa, are all similarily slower than the US destinations that I've visited. Could be a problem with differing systems and attitudes towards equipment, such as the US reliance on GPS and Canada's seemingly grudgingly acceptance of it, or maybe funding. What do you see as the biggest hurdles? If it's just us pilots, fair enough, don't be shy to say so! (Just don't snap on the radio when politely asked 'what's with the delays?', like one did in yyc a few weeks ago!!

[youngtimer]

Having thought about it a little more, I think the US ATC system seems more cohesive, by that, their communication between sectors, as well as between center-terminal-tower, is more efficient. It's rare to get best forward speed at altitude, then slowed to landing speed by terminal, then back to fast as you can by tower, as an example. The flow through altitude to landing is more predictable. Would that be the way the system is designed as a difference from Canada, or do I just keep picking good days to fly south!!

[burly]

To start to my response i will say yes there is room for improvement. there is always room for improvement as no one can run a perfect operation. To answer your next question yes i think myself and any other controller in YYC TCU could work busy traffic at any US airport. The busier the airport the more structered it becomes. The busier it is the more it just becomes a downwind at 8000ft speed 210 and put 5 in trail . In calgary with CRDA it is not possible to do that. We vector to space by a bare minimum at the intersection. that why it is necessary sometimes to speed you up and then slow you down. Its either that or ill pull you out or tower will overshoot you. Its not a perfect operation but this is a poor man's parallel. Go ask the YYC tower guys how many times they pucker their ass in a day watching the rwy 16/10 intersection spacing on a busy arrival push. Things are tight and it becomes complex. This isnt a straight 5 mile operation. Im not saying this is rocket science by any means but it is a different type of controlling. We would love to use the LAHSO operation to tighten things up but unfortuantely alot of airlines and pilots dont feel too hot about this anymore.

We have had terminal controllers come over from Hong Kong, Frankfurt, Sydney etc to name a few... They all say the same things. Running an intersecting operation at this traffic level is crazy. Alternative = Parallel Runway. Call the CAA and see where they are at with the parallel that was promised years ago. The new revised date as of yesterday is now 2014. Woohoo.

I cant comment on the specific of the USA system but we do what we can here with the equipment and tools we are given. Unfortunately you cant please every one out there and sometimes we just have to pick up the phone and tell the center to slow planes. (by the way, they issue the holds, we just issue the time you can come in )

Come on by the terminal and someone would be glad to show you the system in place and then you can suggest away.

[youngtimer]

Thanks for the insight, Burly. I will try and stop in some day. I'll also be sure and voice my complaint to anyone who cares that we need a parallel runway in calgary and better structure throughout the system. I can honestly say I'm not one of those pilots that gives you attitude on the radio but there certainly are a lot of them who do, and I do share in their frustration. From the tone of your posts, you guys are proud of your work and just need better tools, just like I want a faster airplane. 99% of the time it's a pleasure working with you! Please don't take offense to the other 1%!!!!

[youngtimer]

http://www.calgaryairport.com/feedback/dsp_feedback.cfm

I shared my 2 cents here, maybe some others would help...

[altiplano]

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[burly]

I'm not going to get a pissing match as everyone is entitled to their own opinion on here, but to suggest that we delay planes for the hell of it is totally ridiculous, and every controller will agree with me on that. The quicker your out of my airspace the better. First of all, doesnt matter if its sky clear or not, the arrival rate is set based on the runway combo and winds etc. The highest flow rate we can handle in a particular mode is 43 arrivals per hour. That gives the tower less departure holes so therefore if the departure demand picks up then they are going to back up. Usually we are on a flow rate of 37-38 arrivals per hour. It can be the sky clear but if the ETMS shows 57 estimated for CYYC in the next hour then guess what.... Its simple math. We can usually handle a few extras if the planes are park on the southside ( eg. airsprint, NCB or sunwest) and tower allows us to use the 3rd intersecting runway. This is when we can jam the airport to the max but basically shuts departures to a minimum. From our continuous number of user meetings we show radar feeds and ask the users (AC, WJ, and general avaition reps) what they would like us to do better. Either you hold for 5-10 min at fl200 and have a continuous descent to a 10-15 mile final or would you rather come in the terminal and go downwind for 30 miles at 4000agl and burn fuel like crazy before we turn you final. They all say the quick hold is there better option. If you find that the frequency is too quiet that is because there is more than one arrival controller and frequency on.

Like i said in previous post, the system is not flawless but then again the offer is open to come on down and watch an evening arrival push and then you can let me and the other guys in the TCU on staff that night what we are doing wrong. We will also hit the hotline to the tower and you can let them know what they are doing wrong too. Im sure they will have lots of time to talk to you. Our view is a little different from your TCAS, even though you think you might have the picture. How about this... You fly the plane and ill tell you where to go so you don't T-Bone the king air landing on a intersecting runway.



On a side note, how are the pilots feeling about the new Visual Departure Take Offs. Its been a few weeks since TC gave the final approval and have seen departure capacity increase already so there is some promise....

[ahramin]

Youngtimer:

CAR 602.31 and RAC 1.7

[Braun]

I'm not going to get a pissing match as everyone is entitled to their own opinion on here, but to suggest that we delay planes for the hell of it is totally ridiculous, and every controller will agree with me on that. The quicker your out of my airspace the better. First of all, doesnt matter if its sky clear or not, the arrival rate is set based on the runway combo and winds etc. The highest flow rate we can handle in a particular mode is 43 arrivals per hour. That gives the tower less departure holes so therefore if the departure demand picks up then they are going to back up. Usually we are on a flow rate of 37-38 arrivals per hour. It can be the sky clear but if the ETMS shows 57 estimated for CYYC in the next hour then guess what.... Its simple math. We can usually handle a few extras if the planes are park on the southside ( eg. airsprint, NCB or sunwest) and tower allows us to use the 3rd intersecting runway. This is when we can jam the airport to the max but basically shuts departures to a minimum. From our continuous number of user meetings we show radar feeds and ask the users (AC, WJ, and general avaition reps) what they would like us to do better. Either you hold for 5-10 min at fl200 and have a continuous descent to a 10-15 mile final or would you rather come in the terminal and go downwind for 30 miles at 4000agl and burn fuel like crazy before we turn you final. They all say the quick hold is there better option. If you find that the frequency is too quiet that is because there is more than one arrival controller and frequency on.

Like i said in previous post, the system is not flawless but then again the offer is open to come on down and watch an evening arrival push and then you can let me and the other guys in the TCU on staff that night what we are doing wrong. We will also hit the hotline to the tower and you can let them know what they are doing wrong too. Im sure they will have lots of time to talk to you. Our view is a little different from your TCAS, even though you think you might have the picture. How about this... You fly the plane and ill tell you where to go so you don't T-Bone the king air landing on a intersecting runway.



On a side note, how are the pilots feeling about the new Visual Departure Take Offs. Its been a few weeks since TC gave the final approval and have seen departure capacity increase already so there is some promise....

+1 Just imagine if there were flow times like everywhere in the states in all canadian airports. There is only so much you can do with 12 arrivals at once with one runway!

[youngtimer]

thanks again ahramin. the aim's easy to find stuff, the car's not so much for me...

[youngtimer]

Murray, I get the picture... yes, it seems I am just getting lucky. I'll accept that the US and can systems are on par with each other. Cpl-atc: I was never implying that controllers themselves are slowing traffic down for any reason other that safety. What I was implying by the nav can union statement, is that staffing levels and service levels are carefully controlled for reasons that I won't get into or debate, as that's a whole seperate can of worms incorporating just about every monopoly/civil service in this country. And my implication is based on discussion with former nav can management, so I'm not just pulling things out of thin air. If I didn't trust each controller I deal with individually to do their jobs professionally, I wouldn't be flying.

[youngtimer]

Thankyou for answering my questions. As for conspiracy theories and sources, I'm not really interested in getting others into trouble or ruining your day by continuing to discuss them, although I think that's half the fun of a forum like this. So I'll drop the matter, happy with what I know, and happy that you have more confidence in the system than I.