Fort McMurray area airports - Question

[Captain_Canuck]

Good day folks,

Just a question regarding IFR flight into the airstrips north west of YMM. This mainly pertains to CAL4, Firebag and CYNR. Most of the time when we descend into uncontrolled airspace, we often hear many of the operators tell YEG CTR that they will "close on the way out". This means that they will land, off load / load up, taxi and takeoff under their original IFR clearance that they received at their departure airport. However, this would subsequently tie up the airport from all other traffic until said aircraft was airborne would it not? What I am curious about is how come they dont just cancel the IFR (if WX conditions permit), keep the alerting services open and close on the ground with a phone call? Would that not make the most about of sense for all of the other operators using these airports?

I was aware that there was a Northern Airport working group that was comprised of all the operators that regularly use these strips (Shell, Encana, Sunwest, CMA, Flair, NCA, CDN North) and was just wondering if any readers of this forum perhaps have any information on the arrival procedures in place for these strips; mainly pertaining to the 3 I mentioned before.

Safe Flying

[Donald]

Are you sure they are saying: "will close on the way out" and not "will close on the ground".

It's my understanding that most, if not all of these strips are in un-controlled airspace (clear of YMM albeit close). Therefore the approach clearance is: "You are clear of controlled airspace, (minimum safe is XXX), switch to the en-route frequency." Since ATC has sent you on your way so to speak, they are not blocking any airspace and the airport is not "tied up".

[FICU]

Once cleared en-route by ATC we tell them we will will close our flight plan on the ground. ATC will, at times, give us our outbound squawk code when we are inbound.

There are now preferred IFR routes into these strips from Edmonton and Albian has a SID. Beware when departing south as the YMM control zone is quite close so it's normal to see the jets heading southwest in the initial climb prior to picking up the IFR clearance.

[Captain_Canuck]

Hey Donald.

Yes 100% that is what we hear routinely. "We will close on the way out". Given that they have been cleared out of controlled airspace into an uncontrolled airport, theoretically, they are still on an IFR flight plan that has not been closed. As far as I understood it, if their IFR clearance is still open then would that not tie up the airport which that are at and we are trying to get into?

Just trying to wrap my hear around this.

I did note the SID out of CAL4 and am just looking for something from the Norther Airport working group to upload to here. I found what I was looking for. It is contained in an AIP Supplement 14/08 and it pertains to departure and arrival procedures into those 3 airports.

I think things have the potential of going bad up there with the massive increase in traffic.

[Benwa]

In uncontrolled airspace, you don't have/need a clearance.

What you get is a clearance OUT of controlled airspace. Separation is the pilots responsability in uncontrolled airspace, so NO, it would not "tie up" the airport if they don't close the flightplan.

[Captain_Canuck]

Yes actually I think it would as they are on an IFR flight plan that is still open. ATC will not clear anyone into that airport until that IFR aircraft has closed their flight plan. I have also run into this situation in YCD before.

[DA900]

ATC will not clear you for an approach to an airport in uncontrolled airspace such as CYNR. What they will do is clear you out of controlled airspace in the vicinity of that airport. You can advise them of your approach so then can accommodate you for the arrival fix. You can also close your flight plan at 12500 asl assuming you have the airport in sight, or have it closed on the ground, but you are not tying up those airports as they not in controlled airspace so you can depart when ever you like and pick up your clearance before 12 500. There is nothing stopping you from doing that.

[Tiny Voices]

You do not need a clearance to operate in uncontrolled airspace and the airspace is not unusable to others until such time as you cancel or close your IFR. Separation is a matter between you the next guy and common sense. You do however require a clearance to depart controlled or enter/re-enter controlled airspace, as has been stated by others here.

[Benwa]

as soon as you're out of the Airway, under 12 500' it's uncontrolled airspace in that area.

[Dave T]

The whole area is a gong show and needs something done. Albian for example the approach overlaps Mildred Lake. You end up having to talk to centre, call 126.7, call Mildred Lake, and call Albian. It can be a huge workload for the PNF and there is no way you can monitor all the freqs so you're gonna miss important things anyways. They either need some kind of a common freq for traffic up there or to control all of it. Not a good mix when you have uncontrolled airspace with jets, turbo props, and little guys all bombing around the area.

[square]

Every pilot out there should report on 26.7. Center is not enough, in case you're wondering, because Mildred Lake, Albian, Horizon and Firebag are not nearly a quarter of the traffic going up there. There are many helicopters (those guys actually like 23.2) servicing all the oilsands ops (and this includes all the big plants plus the many other shitty plants like Kearl Lake, Fort Hills, Total, etc. that don't have airports yet,) VFR charters to the same areas, tours over the plants, dozens and dozens of flights northbound to Fort Chip, plus there are like 30 forestry strips, dozens of lodges, gas plants and mining strips that are in use 6 to 12 months of the year that are either real close to the big strips, or are on direct tracks overhead of the upgrader plants from CYMM. The majority of the traffic is VFR. So call on 26.7 and you won't get hit. Oh, and also, ACTUALLY LISTEN TO THE FREQUENCY AFTER YOU BROADCAST. My god is it pathetic to hear these high profile jets make their elongated call with the please please advise then completely ignore someone who comes on hailing them 1 second later. Stop making a show of it and actually care please, this is the place where you will get in a midair.

[ARFFway]

I second the motion....Yikes....I'm on the cleanup crew.

[grimey]

Most of the time when we descend into uncontrolled airspace, we often hear many of the operators tell YEG CTR that they will "close on the way out". This means that they will land, off load / load up, taxi and takeoff under their original IFR clearance that they received at their departure airport. However, this would subsequently tie up the airport from all other traffic until said aircraft was airborne would it not?

You're confusing the alerting service, whether the ACC contacts Trenton to go looking for you, with separation. The pilots are talking about closing their IFR flight plan, not keeping their separation standard until they're airborne again (which wouldn't make sense anyway, they're in uncontrolled airspace). It was fairly common when I was in YPE for guys inbound from nearby strips VFR to close their old IFR flight plan through me when they were airborne again. None of the controllers in YEG seemed to have a problem with it. Makes for a quick turn around if you're just dropping off or picking up a patient, and there's spotty cell/radio coverage.