When did this become standard phrasology?

ATC: ABC cleared to FL210
ABC: FL210 ABC
ATC: Sure

I'm hearing it more and more these days

Lurch

We have one of those here. He's a controller that says "Roger" to most responses, although the transmission usually starts at "ger" from the delay in keying the mic, hence the "sure".

haha sounds like sloppy/lazy radio technique, nothing more.

You can try and make a big deal out if it if you want but I'm telling you that it is proper phraseology that is being confused as something else by the pilots.

Lurch is referring to one controller that likes to respond with Roger to most pilot transmissions to let them know he heard them. Over the years the Ro-ger blended into a phrase that often sounds like "roGer" or "Sure". One of the pilots mentioned that they always know when he's controlling because he says "sure" a lot. It took him a while before he realized that she was confusing his "Roger" for a "Sure". With the slight delay before the mic is keyed and the emphasis on "Ger", it does sound very similar to "sure".

He's not clearing anyone into the flight levels and he works at the tower that Lurch flies out of, and is one of the better controllers on the field. I normally don't post on here with all the babyish bickering that always develops regardless of what is said, but I know this controller personally and thought I'd clear up the misunderstanding.

Treeblender you make a compelling argument, I hope you're right

The only reason I brought it up was because I'm not just hearing it from one tower, I'm hearing it on center from several differant controllers, from Vancouver to Winnipeg.

Cheers

Lurch

I had this "roger" thing explained to me by a now retiree. His rationale was it was a requirement for him to acknowledge the receipt of a readback of a clearance from a pilot. Which didn't make much sense to me as "roger" means "I have copied your transmission", not "Copied and understood". If the pilot readback was incorrect, ATC would correct it. If not, why reply?

straight from your MANOPS (and mine):

ROGER: “I have received all of your last
transmission”. (N)
Note 5: (yours)
This word is used to acknowledge receipt and is not
intended to be used for other purposes.

Note 5: (mine)
Not used for any purpose other than to
acknowledge receipt.

Sorry Cpl, it's an acknowledgment only. Both MANOPs and TP1158 both define it as "I have received all of your last transmission". It says nothing about understood. "From the Ground Up" defines it as "Ok. I have received your message". Wilco on the other hand means "I received and understand your message and will comply".

Arguing semantics I know, however as I said, I find it redundant. The whole premise to a readback of a clearance is the receiving station repeats the required information to ensure it has been "received and understood". "Rogering" a readback? Should the "roger" then be "rogered"?

Those responsible for rogering the roger have been sacked.

Those who sacked the rogerer have also been sacked

The sackers who sacked the rogerer have been rogered and sacked

Seriously, show where there is any requirement for ATC to acknowledge any readback - except of course to correct it.....,

FamilyGuy wrote:Those responsible for rogering the roger have been sacked.

Those who sacked the rogerer have also been sacked

The sackers who sacked the rogerer have been rogered and sacked

Seriously, show where there is any requirement for ATC to acknowledge any readback - except of course to correct it.....,

a moose once bit my sister.

Heh.

Like I said, many, many moons ago when there was a steam driven mouse named Roger running around driving the radar and comms consisted of a couple of tin cans tied together, there may have been something. I too have never seen a reference, but if it indeed is causing some confusion (ie the clipping to make it sound like "sure"), then maybe it needs to stop.

I like the female voice working yyz that says "sure"

wik

Roger the wik

Back in the post WW2 days when you wanted to let the other party know you understood the message you used the word " Wilco " which meant " message received and understood ".....we also navigated by sound.

Also the controllers from that era would have hunted KAFUFO
down and surgically removed his brain from his rectum and put it back in his head.

. . wrote:Back in the post WW2 days when you wanted to let the other party know you understood the message you used the word " Wilco " which meant " message received and understood ".....we also navigated by

I thought Wilco meant "Willl Comply, and Roger meant Message Received and Understood?

For example :

ATC : Dragon XX contact your Ops
DRGNXX : Wilco

ATC : Dragon XX, last aircraft reported ceiling 300 feet.
DRGNXX : Roger

I almost got "Rogered" by a moose when I landed a C-45 at Jasper...and he didn't speak with a lisp

Old Dog Flying wrote:I almost got "Rogered" by a moose when I landed a C-45 at Jasper...and he didn't speak with a lisp

Wow! I sure hope that happened in the 70's when your "lisp" comment would have been acceptable!

Wow! I sure hope that happened in the 70's when your "lisp" comment would have been acceptable!

Please explain?

. . wrote:

Wow! I sure hope that happened in the 70's when your "lisp" comment would have been acceptable!

Please explain?

You're kidding, right???? It'll come to you...........I'm sure.

You're kidding, right???? It'll come to you...........I'm sure.

AAhhh now I get it...the PC thing...the thought police.

We're arguing the definition of roger? There is seriously no word used more than it, and we don't know what it means. I don't actually care about that part though, but come on, there is no gd difference between "message copied" and "message copied and understood." If it didn't mean understood, you'd only be able to use it to tell people that you heard all the words they said but you don't know what they mean because you're either 5 years old, don't speak english, are drunk or .. let us say, simple.

There is some places in Africa were ATC would say:
"Wake up" (suit them rather well actually)




---> "We copy" <---

square wrote:We're arguing the definition of roger? There is seriously no word used more than it, and we don't know what it means. I don't actually care about that part though, but come on, there is no gd difference between "message copied" and "message copied and understood." If it didn't mean understood, you'd only be able to use it to tell people that you heard all the words they said but you don't know what they mean because you're either 5 years old, don't speak english, are drunk or .. let us say, simple.

Well, I sympathize with this point of view.... but there is a historical context here.

"Roger" is a radio operations term, and not really "controller" syntax.

Radio operators transmit messages that they "do not understand" all the time. For example, messages for third parties, or messages that are encrypted.

For that reason "Roger" is used to indicate only that "I have received every single character and word of the message" and that's all. Then it was up to the operator (implied as part of his job) only to forward it to the next relay point or to deliver it to the ultimate recipient. He never did care about the content (as long as he was sure that he got all of it correct).

In that context, the controller is actually wearing two hats. One is "Radio operator", and the other is the Controller. The pilot is forwarding a message to the controller. But it is the radio operator, who receives it and says "roger".... to inform us "I got the message".

Then the "Radio operator" delivers the message to the "controller" (himself). The "controller" does have to understand the message, because he is the designated recipient, and he may have to react because of it.

But that part is not really our business.... we have done our part by forward the message to the designated relay point.... If the controller wants to (or needs to) react further... perhaps by returning a reply or a request.... then that is up to him.


...


....

I believe that the correct phraseology is actually "Roger, Wilco, Over-and-Out". The Roger indicates receipt of the entire transmission, Wilco indicates understanding and action if necessary, and Over-and-Out indicates the radio session is complete and does not require any further response.

*Source = movie, Airplane! circa 1980