Multi Engine Rating - Instructor Qualifications

[Giveitago]

Quick question for the flight training types...

Who can provide training for a multi engine rating? Do you have to hold an instructor rating?
I've been told, but cannot find in the Cars, That the instructor (not the examiner) has to hold a commercial licence with a multi rating, 50 hrs multi PIC and 10 hours on type. The "instructor" does not need to hold a valid instructor rating.

After proper training that fufills all the requirements of the multi sylabus then we can fill out the forms recomending the applicant for the flight test which will then be carried out by a transport delagated examiner which in turn would issue the rating.

Right? Wrong? Or is this just so far off that you now believe I am on crack for asking this question?

Thanks for the responses....and if you can find anything in the CARS on this specifically, you're doing way better than me.

[Hedley]

CAR 425.21(5) applies:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#425_21

(5) A person who conducts flight training in a multi-engine aeroplane where the trainee does not have a multi-engine class rating shall:

(a) be the holder of a Commercial Pilot Licence or an Airline Transport Pilot Licence;

(b) have multi-engine pilot experience, which if acquired on centre thrust multi-engine aeroplanes may be credited toward qualifying a pilot to provide centre thrust multi-engine flight instruction only; and

(c) have experience of not less than 50 hours flight time on multi-engine aeroplanes with not less than 10 hours on the type of aeroplane used for the training.

The regulations do not require a flight instructor rating, to teach multi-engine.

[mcrit]

You got it right. Here is the CAR.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... ds/425.htm

[Giveitago]

WoW

Not only are you guys fast, you can make the transport site search function actually bring back relevant information.....

Thanks very much

[just curious]

Actually, you can find it easier in google, with the question you have + TC.gc attached. Their search function is still goofy.

[kilocharliemike]

So, lets say you have these qualifications and give some instruction in a twin, what do you log it as?

2nd question. Can one be hired as a Multi instructor buy a school If you dont have a instructor rating? Does this happen?

ty
KCM

[Hedley]

So, lets say you have these qualifications and give some instruction in a twin, what do you log it as?

Is this a trick question? Multi-PIC, by day or night as
appropriate, and if you have columns for them in your
logbook, retractable gear time and instructor time. You
are giving dual flight instruction after all, even though
you may not hold a (current) flight instructor rating.
CAR 425.21 is VERY clear about this.

Can one be hired as a Multi instructor by a school if you dont have a instructor rating?

I've seen it happen. It's not common, because all
of the young, starving flight instructors are willing
to kill or perform sex acts illegal in several southern
states to do whatever it takes to get multi time, but
if there are no available, qualified flight instructors on
staff (with 50 multi and 10 on type), then this can
occur. Not often, though.

KCM

twin comanche, right? You should really get it into a
hangar sometime soon.

[kilocharliemike]

CAR 425.21 is VERY clear about this.

Im at work so I didnt have to much time to search, but thanks for the legwork

twin comanche, right? You should really get it into a
hangar sometime soon.

whats wrong with the twinkie, was actually my favorite of the three?

KCM

[trey kule]

Hedley, your subtle comments got me thinking (yes..it hurts)

I have a question for instructors.

How many of you who teach multi engine training received any training from your FTU on how to teach this?
How many of you received any training from your FTU on the syllabus or the best way to go about it?

I am not talking about help while you are teaching. I am talking about , at the very least, your CFI sitting down with you and discussing how to best teach this to your student in the least hours.

It is a question, if I was a student, at todays rates, I would be asking any instructor who wanted to train me. somebody telling you they have done a bunch of them does not mean they have done it well.

As far as I remember there was no discussion of it at all in the initial instructor ratings or even in the exams. That was many many moons ago, so maybe I have forgotten.

As was mentioned above, with so many instructors willing to sell their souls to teach this, how many actually get training in how to do it.

[mcrit]

Most places I worked at had an new MIFR instructor watch a senior instructors lessons before being turned loose to teach on their own. They also had a senior instructor do a few flights with the new guys students.

[trey kule]

First of all Mcrit, can you be a little more defining. How many FTu's are you referrring to, and how many of them did what you stated. Not to be picky but words like most, many etc, do not give me the kind of numbers I needed. Thanks in advance

Secondly, I am surprised that no FTU operators or CFI's posted to outline their training/supervision program for their instructors. Seems when I read most of these threads the instructors are jumping all over them with suggestions and ideas .

I am genuinely interested in the answer to this question for those who would like to post.

[mcrit]

First of all Mcrit, can you be a little more defining.

I think you mean definite....not to be picky about words.

3 of the 4 FTUs I worked at took the mentorship route.

[Plane Collector]

It seems, this discussion has missed one rather important point:
You don't need to be an flight instructor BUT:
How often do students log the multi training as part of their commercial training? They can not use the dual training for this purpose if not provided by a flight instructor.
That's why most schools would probably want to see your instructor rating.

[trey kule]

That's why most schools would probably want to see your instructor rating.

interesting conclusion. My guess is that it is a big carrot schools hold out to instructors in lieu of decent wages and the draconian hours, and that ultimately they dont give a rats butt about the student or the quality of training.

I asked the question as to how many schools had formal training for their instructors with regard to teaching syllabus, standards etc...one post and that was that 3 of the 4 schools had some type of mentoring program...nothing formal.
not one school..


so...turn the instructor loose with a student and let them teach.
the only thing that happens when you learn the wrong way, and practice it...is you learn to do the wrong things well.
And that is why we see the mindless, unthinking rote emergency drills...you would be amazed at what some of the new
cpl/hires are really good at doing wrong...and retraining them at a company is time consuming and expensive.

[just curious]

Hi Trey,

I can't speak to present day schools, but in the 70's to 80's Moncton, Brampton, Fredericton, and Hamilton Flying Clubs, as well as Penninsula had career CFI's that would have killed one of their own children before they let an unprepared instructor near an unsuspecting student. The Wong brothers at Central were like that from the 40's till they retired. I was watchful at my little out of the way school in the Maritimes, but with a max of 3 instructors, it wasn't hard. I was never going to be as good as thise guys though.

I've no idea if there are the modern equivalents of Dave Wall, Rick Wynott, Reg Spence or Bill Tourtell. I've heard good things about the former CFI of Perimeter's IFR school from his former air cadet gliding students through to his peers in the CF. Likewise for Pierre from Calgary Flying Club. I'd like to think there are a few career instructors out there.

The arguement that instruction from an experienced multi pilot wasn't especially useful since it couldn't be logged towards the total commercial is specious at best. It's been a while since I've flown a Navajo, but I expect there's still a dozen things about it's operation I could recall that wouldn't be in the syllabus for a multi course taught by a class 3 with 100 hours twin time. And I'm not that bright. A good pilot could point out all sorts of useful things.

That having been said, I'm not about to jump back into instructing at the ab initio level in my retirement. Teach cadets, do type ratings, and rides perhaps... but there are a thousand people sweating blood trying to break 1000 hours. I don't need to steal their time away.

[TC Aviator]

Hey Fellas,

Check out the Flight Instructor Guide - Multi-Engine Class Rating.

Here is the link: http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/gener ... 5/menu.htm

[Big Pistons Forever]

TC Aviator

I assume you work for TC. If that is so thanks for making the effort to post on Avcanada as several of your brethern were chased off the site by a few posters who constantly flamed them with personal attacks and viciously insulting posts. I found this very disappointing as it removed any chance of hearing a TC point of view on any subject. TC Guy in particular always had a thoughfull and reasonable commentary on matters he chose to respond to. Unfortunately he has not posted for a long time so I assume he has given up on Avcanada.

Moderators: I would suggest this is one area where more intervention is required to keep the TC bashing from going past legitimate commentary to just plain ugly flaming. You don't have to agree with TC , but you can still be civil when responding, however the level of vitriol in the past has prohibited any rational discussion about anything a TC posters has to say and in the end, as I said above, deprives the avcanada community of the TC view point......

[just curious]

Yeah, I try to keep an eye. There aren't many P & N region inspectors I don't know, and I'd sit down for a beer with pretty much any of them.
JC