PA31 Single Pilot PPC's vs Multi-crew PPC's

flyer · Post by **flyer** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:41 pm

I've gotten differing answers from Transport and Industry. Does a single pilot PA31 PPC cover the requirements of a multi crew PPC, or is an entire multicrew PPC ride necessary to have a second pilot in a navajo, when the autopilot is down or the flight time will exceed 8hours in a day?

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 5:16 pm

A single pilot PPC is all that's required to head out with two crew, or an auto-pilot. I'd be kind of interested to know who fed you the load of crap about requireing a two crew PPC.
Of course, when "Auto" is down, both pilots need to be PPC'd. Or, you can always go VFR.

Donald · Post by **Donald** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:16 pm

Of course, when "Auto" is down, both pilots need to be PPC'd

Almost. The co-pilot only needs to be PCC'd.

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:11 pm

Doc you should tell that to TC out here in Alberta; they've been forcing companies to do single pilot and two-crew rides or both if the pilot does single and two crew operations.

flyer · Post by **flyer** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:28 am

This comes from a new guy at the transport office in Calgary, his name is Rick something, I think, and is probably on a short leash from, you guessed it, Audy Barr...I can't find anything in the CARS to clarify the issue, however, I have written transport for an explanation. Does anyone else have any proof either way, or contacts at transport to get an answer or raise some hell in Alberta?

Tango01 · Post by **Tango01** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:32 am

I checked the TC site yesterday and the Navajo specified a MFC of one. Unless this is wrong or the Navajo is a high performance a/c, why do you need a type rating on it?

T

flyer · Post by **flyer** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:42 am

any commercially operated navajo on pax. runs, requires a PPC (single-pilot) or apparently (in someone important's mind) a multi-crew ride. Up until this year, I've never heard of anyone needing a 2 crew PPC for a navajo. I've seen on the tc website that only one pilot is authorized to fly unless the aircrafts autopilot is down or 8 hrs w/ IMC flight time will be exceeded but nowhere have I ever seen anything saying a 2 crew ride is mandatory for those op's as well. TC pulled that one out of thin air it seems...

frog · Post by **frog** » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:26 pm

I am afraid I am going to be a party pooper but if you hold a single ifr ppc and if you want to fly multi crew than you need to do another ride with a co pilot.

More fun: If you want to fly as a co pilot and you hold a multi crew ppc, you need to do approx 1 hour and a half of training as a co pilot.

3Green · Post by **3Green** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:20 am

So you're PPC'd on an airplane (Navajo, King Air, whatever) and you're flying Co-Captain (both PPC'd). You're telling me you need to do 1.5 training so that you can sit in the right seat?
Show me.
This is rediculous.

In my experience, we have done the two crew PPC and at the end of it, the person flying in the left seat has reverted to "Single Pilot" SOP's and done an IFR approach to minimums withouth the AP (while the dude acting Co-Jo sat there for the rest of the ride). That satisfied the requirements of the Two-Crew PPC and the Single Pilot PPC.

frog · Post by **frog** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:15 am

I am not saying it makes sense but I worked for a 703 with a Navajo and we ran in this situation with TC. According to TC beiing qualified as captain with a multi crew PPC does not make you qualified as co-pilot. Normally to act as a co-pilot on a Navajo takes 4 hours of training. The fact of holding a PPC brought down the requirement to 1 hour and a half.

For this company I was trained buy a guy who held a single IFR PPC. This guy acted as the co-pilot during the ride. Nonetheless he had to to one hour and a half of training to act as co-pilot on the plane.

I know it sounds weird but it is exactely what happened.

Donald · Post by **Donald** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 12:27 pm

Frog: Could your qualified captain act as co-pilot after completing right seat conversion training?
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/comme ... annexa.htm

12. Right Seat Conversion Training
For a left seat-qualified pilot to operate an aeroplane from the right seat, the following shall apply:

be qualified and current on the aeroplane type for left seat duties;
receive sufficient technical ground training on right seat duties; and
annually, receive sufficient flight or FFS training to enable a Company Check Pilot, air operator
aeroplane type Chief Pilot or aeroplane type Training Pilot to certify the competency of the pilot
to carry out pilot duties from the right seat.

I can't find any reference to a certain number of hours of training. Our syllabus shows that for
right seat conversion training you had to demonstrate a normal takeoff, an engine failure, and a precision approach.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 1:45 pm

The Mission specialist, navigator, bombadier, loadmaster, ship's mascott, entertainment director, onboard doctor and anal utility inspector, not to mention the aircraft commander and his misstress WILL ALL need to be PPC'd as of 2007!! And that's JUST for Navajos! Wait to see what's in store for REAL airplanes!

frog · Post by **frog** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:26 am

Donald,

We are not talking about the same thing,
I know it is confusing but the training you are refering to is the training for the captain to act from the right seat. It means he is on the righ seat but he is not co-pilot, he is still PIC. He could be PNF and the Co-pilot wil be the PF on the left seat.
I hope I am clear. For this situation there is no time frame specified for the training, it is the operator discretion.

I was talking about the training required to be co-pilot for a Navajo.
If you are already qualified as PIC (PPC), it will be at least 1 hour and a half (it could be more according to your ops manual), and if you are not trained at all on the plane it will be at least 4 hours.

I had to go aver over all those matters when I put together the ops manual and the SOP of a 703 company operating a PA 31. It took me a while to be on top of all those regs !

Donald · Post by **Donald** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:10 am

More fun: If you want to fly as a co pilot and you hold a multi crew ppc, you need to do approx 1 hour and a half of training as a co pilot.

If you want to fly as co-pilot, does that mean the other person is flying as "pilot"? This statement is where you have me confused and why I still think right seat conversion is all you need.

Or, in your company are you doing the PIC-under-supervision program?

Or it could just be the fact since you and I have dealt with different people in TC we have recieved different answers!

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:16 am

Just one of the many reasons I like single pilot ops! An "fo" in a "ho"? I'd rather see the extra 200 pounds or so go as freight. I'm not talking the odd rush-hour stop off in ORD here now kids....but for the kind of ops using HO's....do you really think all the hoops we must jump through are worth it? I dont. Give me a wild HO and a star to steer her by!

frog · Post by **frog** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:23 am

You can fly as co-pilot but you will not be PIC but PF. The PF is not necessarly the PIC.
In other word for beiing able to let a co-pilot fly left seat, the PIC needs to undergo the right seat conversion otherwise the co-pilot could only fly the plane from the right seat.
Now if you put to PPC guy in the plane for a multi crew only approved company, if they are flying IFR one of the guy need the co-pilot training which is not the same as the right seat conversion training...

Doc,

I agree with you that whith small aircraft it is great to have the single pilot authority, but in some case it makes sense to have multi crew also.
for instance a long trip with a light load (remember the 8 hours limit rule).
Also it gives a chance to people to gain some experience, to add multi time to the logbook. Some passengers prefer to have 2 persons in front.

frog · Post by **frog** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:23 am

You can fly as co-pilot but you will not be PIC but PF. The PF is not necessarly the PIC.
In other word for beiing able to let a co-pilot fly left seat, the PIC needs to undergo the right seat conversion otherwise the co-pilot could only fly the plane from the right seat.
Now if you put to PPC guy in the plane for a multi crew only approved company, if they are flying IFR one of the guy need the co-pilot training which is not the same as the right seat conversion training...

Doc,

I agree with you that whith small aircraft it is great to have the single pilot authority, but in some case it makes sense to have multi crew also.
for instance a long trip with a light load (remember the 8 hours limit rule).
Also it gives a chance to people to gain some experience, to add multi time to the logbook. Some passengers prefer to have 2 persons in front.

frog · Post by **frog** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:26 am

You can fly as co-pilot but you will not be PIC but PF. The PF is not necessarly the PIC.
In other word for beiing able to let a co-pilot fly left seat, the PIC needs to undergo the right seat conversion otherwise the co-pilot could only fly the plane from the right seat.
Now if you put to PPC guy in the plane for a multi crew only approved company, if they are flying IFR one of the guy need the co-pilot training which is not the same as the right seat conversion training...

Doc,

I agree with you that whith small aircraft it is great to have the single pilot authority, but in some case it makes sense to have multi crew also.
for instance a long trip with a light load (remember the 8 hours limit rule).
Also it gives a chance to people to gain some experience, to add multi time to the logbook. Some passengers prefer to have 2 persons in front.

Donald · Post by **Donald** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 1:33 pm

Now if you put to PPC guy in the plane for a multi crew only approved company, if they are flying IFR one of the guy need the co-pilot training which is not the same as the right seat conversion training

This is exactly the scenario I was thinking of. When dealing with TC, they have allowed the right seat PPC'd guy to have conversion training only. No 1.5 hr co-pilot course.

Again I think this is a case of TC making different interpretations of the same rules.

It is thought provoking though, thanks for the info frog.

flyer · Post by **flyer** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:27 pm

All training requirements aside, as a single pilot PPC'd navajo driver, flying for a single pilot authorized company, when my flight time will exceed 8hrs IMC or the autopilot is down, I CAN'T fly. I CAN'T take a co-pilot, regardless of his/her training (right seat/PPC/PCC). Right or wrong? Do I really need a 2 crew PPC for a navajo to ever have someone sit in the right seat?

canadian_bacon · Post by **canadian_bacon** » Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:26 pm

I've never done anything but a single pilot ride on a Navajo. We are a single pilot IFR approved operation. However there are times when two pilots are required (customer or duty day issues). In this situation, the right seat guy may or may not be PPC'd, but he does have the req'd training. We've never had any problems with this and TC is full aware of what we do.

The issue is if a persons' PPC was done as a mulit-crew ride and he wishes to do some single pilot IFR work, CASS 723.86 states that the PPC should include;
a) knowledge of the auto-pilot operations and limitations;
b) performance of normal and emergency procedures without assistance;
c) passenger briefing with respect to emergency evacuation; and
d) demonstration of the use of the auto-pilot during appropriate phases of flight;
If the above hasn’t been done as a single pilot, I would think that another ride would be required

flyer · Post by **flyer** » Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:05 pm

Well, in Alberta, (apparently only Alberta), TC does not allow a navajo to fly with 2 crew without a two crew PPC for the PIC. We all have single pilot PPC's which include all the functions of the autopilot and emergency procedures, but that doesn't cut it around here. Without a multicrew PPC, if the autopilot is down or the flight will exceed 8hrs IMC, the plane doesn't fly. This does seem to be a recent change and only heard of in Alberta from what I gather from the above replies. Transport won't reply to any emails for explanations or CAR's proof, either...

canadian_bacon · Post by **canadian_bacon** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:13 pm

We are an Alberta operator and do nothing but single pilot rides in our Navajo. We also do two-pilot trips. I have been through two TC audits here and the only thing TC wanted to see was an acceptable set of SOPs.

habin fever · Post by **habin fever** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:44 pm

appears to be an "alberta requirement". tc wants sops and 2 crew ppc for anyone without single pilot ifr qualifications (less than 1000 hours) for a seneca. we don't have any requirement for 2 crew ops either. figure this one out.

flyer · Post by **flyer** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:16 pm

Jason Ruck, I believe is his name, is the new guy at Transport (Calgary Office) who decided we couldn't fly navajo's 2 crew without the 2 crew PPC's, regardless of the training level of the right seat pilot.

PA31 Single Pilot PPC's vs Multi-crew PPC's

PA31 Single Pilot PPC's vs Multi-crew PPC's

original question