Education...

lo flyer · Post by **lo flyer** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:21 pm

So what does everyone think....Is it necessary to have either a diploma or a degree to be a success in the industry? I am a flight instructor who has "some" post secondary but really nothing to show for it. I know only "Big Red" requires you to have post-secondary but I am still unsure if I should finish some sort of education. What so you all think?

TopperHarley · Post by **TopperHarley** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:59 pm

There's been many posts on this issue in the past- do a search and I'm sure you will find hours and hours of reading.

When it comes down to it, you will probably notice that it's a matter of opinion. There are pilots out there with degrees and diplomas, and there are pilots out there with nothing but high school.

I recommend you make the decision based on what YOU want. Don't do it for the airlines. If you want to complete the degree for personal satisfaction and have something to fall back on, by all means do it. If not, then save your time and money.

Personally, I always recommend people to get an education. This is just my opinion though, and I'm sure there are people here who think otherwise.

Good luck with the decision,

Chris.

chipmunk · Post by **chipmunk** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:10 pm

Do not stop looking for that next flying job, nor give up your current flying job to go back to University or college - the way I see it, the courses I need to finish a degree will always be there, however that job may not. If you plan to make aviation your career, it's the experience (i.e. hours) that matter.
There is always Athabaska U or something like it - take some distance-learning or online courses through them - very portable especially when you are stuck up north somewhere waiting for weather...

LH · Post by LH » Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:58 pm

Chipmunk's answer is the way to go. Many airlines require it or will soon. It's used a a "tool" nowadays also to weed-out the number of applicants. At one time the Toronto Fire Dept was constantly inundated with applications because their requirement was High School only, as far a formal education went. They increased the requirement to a BSc and the applicant level dropped way down. Ergo, problem resolved. It's a known HR method to get rid of the numbers of applicants and increase the quality. Soon as the applicant level drops and they need bodies, then soon after the requirement level drops also. It's a "new age" HR method, that's all.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 9:11 pm

I'd have to partially disagree with chipmunks statement. If you can hold on to a flying job, then you should work while taking courses. That is if you decide to pursue the post-secondary route. Having partially finished pieces of education will hurt you in the end, since it will show that you don't have the perseverance to finish something. How would a future employer feel that you'll quit something the very moment something else comes along (even though that's really what we all do anyways).

Basically, work part-time take courses ffull time, or fly full time and take courses part time, but stick it through till you have something to show for it, and in the end the hours will be there too. There might be a job offer today, but there will be others down the road, possibly better ones with the education.

twinpratts · Post by **twinpratts** » Thu Jan 20, 2005 9:57 pm

You can guess my level of schooling when I say 'no man is uneducated'

(edited for spelling)

chipmunk · Post by **chipmunk** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:41 am

Right Seat Captain wrote:Having partially finished pieces of education will hurt you in the end, since it will show that you don't have the perseverance to finish something. How would a future employer feel that you'll quit something the very moment something else comes along (even though that's really what we all do anyways)

Funny... In the interview for the job I have now all the questions were about flying - my partial university education didn't even come up...

jackrabbit · Post by **jackrabbit** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 10:10 am

Although I completely agree with your theory Right Seat Captain, I also have to agree more towards chipmunk. Especially if you are cotinuing to work on your degree while working. It may even be seen as a bonus when you are asked in an interview "What do you do to keep busy when your not working?" Instead of saying drinking and bringing home locals in the small reserve town you live in you can say that you are trying to keep your time as productive as posssible by continuing your education.

As for the original question, I have yet to be with a company that looks differently towards people with college or university vs. those without. However, I strongly feel that learning is NEVER a bad thing. Even if you take one class in something completely unrealted to anything you do. If you like it and its interesting...why not. Knowledge is power.

LH · Post by LH » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:26 am

jackrabbit-----like your post a lot. I might add one addendum though, that I feel you will agree with. Depending on the size of the company one is with, we are beginning to swing more in line with the ay American firms think in this industry. In otherwards, if they are looking for a CP or Ops Mnager at any point, they will increasingly look for qualified staff members in he other areas of the business, who ALSO have some education relevent to that position. Again, it's not that prevelent here in Canada yet, but increasingly moreso than it used to be. Other than all that, I agree totally with your last statement and have "audited" lost of classes just to gain more info and maybe they didn't do anything for me towards a degree in anything.

corn-shoot · Post by **corn-shoot** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:30 am

We lets start with one thing, there is no such thing as success in Canadian Aviation at the moment. So you might as well get yourself an education so you can feel good about something. And I am not talking about Seneca's home vcr repair assistant course, biggest waste of 10 grand ever. Go do something decent

LH · Post by LH » Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:49 pm

corn-shoot ------- then allow me then to be the one exception sir.....and I consider what I do to be "decent". No shame involved for me at all......and I don't have only my ankles sticking out of someone's "heinie" either. If you would like further example of pilots in the same position, allow me to supply.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:55 pm

I'm doin real well.

And no one here would ever think I'm an ass kisser.

Cat

Yoyoma · Post by **Yoyoma** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:39 pm

I think education for flying shouldn't really be considered...I'm sure all of you with High school level will agree...

Just consider schooling as a backup plan. chipmunk, It won't come up in your interview but pieces of education won't get you job if you had to quit flying...

Cat, I'm told you're one hell of a pilot and can fly a Canso like no other...But don't forget 2 important factors. Not all pilots have your abilities and luck and don't forget we're in 2005...People with no education have a harder time making ends meet.

Education does not equal PhD...A certificate, accreditation or designation, a college degree or others can all be options...

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:27 pm

One of the really rotten components of aviation is that we are all slaves to our medicals. Just have that precious document taken away and see how useless pilot training is. When we're young and bulletproof and think nothing about skiing the 'double blacks', we are also probably working for a gyppo that has no disability insurance (hah!), but then you may not have any dependents either. But if you have huge debts from flying training, what would you do if you got sick or injured and couldn't be a pilot anyymore? In my opinion, some type of education, preferably in a discipline that is your second best career choice, just makes sense.

High school = Starbucks? McDonalds? Forklift?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:29 pm

Yoyoma...

My advice to "EVERY " pilot is get as much education as you can possibly afford, then when you can't afford more read, read and for your whole life alwys keep searching for more interesting subjects to learn..

F.ck I only went to grade eight, but I lucked out and got started in flying without much formal schooling, reading has educated me to at least the point that I can put together a logical string of sentences and sort of get the right punctuation and reasonable grammar sorted out in my offerings.

That is one issue that Chief Pilots will note, if you write and spell like a semi moron it stands to reason that you will be just a sloppy in the rest of your decision making skills.

So never ever quit adding to your education...even if you spend all your life as a pilot which even a moron like me can succeed in.

Cat

Airtids · Post by **Airtids** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:34 pm

Cat and others,
May as well throw travelling into the mix as you're likely to get more education (real world street smarts) out of a couple of months on the road than as many semesters at school. Nothing like being a minority for the first time in your life to give yourself a kick in the head!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 8:02 pm

Right on Airtids, and belonging to motorcycle clubs, going to jail several times, getting shot, several divorces and many other exciting things has made me the man I am today...

Hell everything is education.

Cat

corn-shoot · Post by **corn-shoot** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 8:13 pm

LH wrote:corn-shoot ------- then allow me then to be the one exception sir.....and I consider what I do to be "decent". No shame involved for me at all......and I don't have only my ankles sticking out of someone's "heinie" either. If you would like further example of pilots in the same position, allow me to supply.

Aww cripes boy, this isn't going to become one of those posts where you show us a picture of the beat up aircraft you fly. Let's be real here.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 8:29 pm

chipmunk wrote: Funny... In the interview for the job I have now all the questions were about flying - my partial university education didn't even come up...

Well come on now. I as making ageneral statement, not that it will come up in every interview. It might show on your resume though. There are MANY reasons why someone might not be called for an interview, I'm just sayying for SOME employers, I thyink this might be one of them.

Also to clarify, most post-secondary education won't mean sh*t to the lower spectrum of the industry. But it most certainly does count higher up.

LH · Post by LH » Fri Jan 21, 2005 10:26 pm

corn-shoot -----aviation didn't start when either you or I got involved. There are many in this business that have been "screwed-over" by some other pilot, a maintenance person, a CP, an Ops Manager, wife that wouldn't put up with the away from home B.S and the on again/off again jobs or by a company or life in general. One of those happened to me, but that doesn't give me the right to "hose-down" the rest of the industry. If one wants to go looking for those in a similiar situation to him, then he'll find lots....but he'll also find lots of the rest. It's always easier to associate or listen to those that have that in common with you than do the same with those who are having some degree of success. I've been at this for many decades and I too, have had my "bad hair" days, weeks, months and years.

Cat ----- I always laugh when people talk about "further" education because the word "university" is also used. There are tons of folks who have graduated from Tech Schools of one sort or another and I can only assume that most don't consider them as "further educated" then. I doubt if anyone here is saying that further education of some sort is not good, but why does it have to include attendance at a university? What are the rest ......"chopped liver". Besides, who said a BA/BSc makes a smarter pilot? If that's the case, all those with Grade XII are slightly better than you on the flightdeck.

God I wish it was that simple and easy, eh Cat?

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:26 am

I got asked about my education on an interview once. I told them high school was the 4 hardest years of my life....course I didn't tell em I spent them all in grade 9

chipmunk · Post by **chipmunk** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:49 am

Right Seat Captain wrote:
Well come on now. I as making ageneral statement, not that it will come up in every interview. It might show on your resume though. There are MANY reasons why someone might not be called for an interview, I'm just sayying for SOME employers, I thyink this might be one of them.

Also to clarify, most post-secondary education won't mean sh*t to the lower spectrum of the industry. But it most certainly does count higher up.

RSC, I know you are generalizing, but it is difficult to generalize about such a widely varied industry. It depends on where one wants to go with their flying career. (i.e. one's ultimate goal may not be the airlines, if that is what you mean as "higher up.")

Isn't it mostly who you know as opposed to what you know? Many companies (even the "lower" ones) like you to have inside references. I agree that if I were to put my resume in with a "higher" employer with just my 3 years of Univ. (which I do choose to put on my resume) as opposed to that degree, someone else who has the same time/experience but WITH a degree may get that call. But if I have a good inside reference or two, and the other guy doesn't, who will get the call?

I am not opposed to education. I will finish my degree, mostly because I started it and I like finishing what I've started. If I do lose my medical, I know my degree won't really help me just as it is! (How many U. undergrads get jobs right out of U. in their field? Umm... I'll probably be better off going to a tech school or college...)

Slick Fork · Post by **Slick Fork** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:27 am

I think LH hit the nail on the head. University isn't the only route, or necessarily even the best route, for "higher" education. A university education has no bearing on how intelligent a person is. I know a lot of idiots that went to university, does the degree make them intelligent? Nope, it just means that there's a large number of highly educated morons on the loose in our great country (just look at parliament!!)!!!

It depends on what you want to do with your education. A degree sure is nice to hang on your wall and point to, but it won't guarantee you a job if your medical gets yanked. Neither for that matter will trade school, especially if you take your education and then don't use it for 10 or 15 years. No matter what the field, employers want you to be current in your knowledge. Especially in something like a trade or technical field where things are changing constantly.

jackrabbit · Post by **jackrabbit** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:42 am

I absolutley agree Slick and LH.
University isn't the only route. Take a pottery class or a cooking class if that's what you are interested in. In my mind it's really not important what you are learning, it's the fact you are learning is what makes the difference. Think about how rusty your first landing is when you get back from vacation, or every fall when you are dealing with ice for the first time. I guess it's true what they say, practice makes perfect. So why should the ablility to learn be any different. This may sound a little far fetched but like I said before, education, whatever it may be, is NEVER a waste.

LH · Post by LH » Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:56 pm

Slick Fork ----you also bring up another valid point. I have a nephew who didn't finish university until he was 30....and that was McGill. He has a PhD in Chemistry and a PhD in Cpmputer Science. He's now been working at Motorola in Austen, TX for 5 years. He's retutning to university there for more training. I asked him he hadn't had enough of university and he agreed he had, but he said he was getting "out-of'date". I asked how that was and this is what he stated......"you get a degree and approximately 2 years after you graduate, at least 1/2 of what you learned had been superceded by another finding or technology.......about 4 years after graduating that degree on the wall is just that...a piece of paper on the wall that does nothing. It indicates THEN, only what you accomplished at one time". So a person can get all the education they want, but they gotta keep it up-to-date or else it's the same as this business.....you ain't passing the "currency ride".

I returned to university and got what I wanted in '86. Average age in my classes......not what I expected.......about 33yrs old......and all graduates with a degree at one time.