Too cold for turbines?

[C-206]

What is your cold temp. limit for turbines?

[HS-748 2A]

Do you mean the eng oil temp - or the OAT?

[C-206]

OAT.

[DHC3Rwannafly]

-100000

[just curious]

Minus fifty is hard on a Kingair's tires and door seals. For PT-6's in general, the synthetic oils are not rated for starts below -40, since the oil viscosity is simply not enough.

[Doc]

Minus fifty is hard on a Kingair's tires and door seals. For PT-6's in general, the synthetic oils are not rated for starts below -40, since the oil viscosity is simply not enough.

Door seals?? My butt seals let go at -41!!! Makes the air in the cockpit unfit to support life!

[Sulako]

It's sort of complicated, at least with Cessna jets.

There's a whole pile of different limits that have to be obeyed, according to the Cessna Citation Cold Weather Operations Manual, 2nd edition.

For example, in a C550, the engines and oil can only be -40 for start. If you are using Jet-A, then you are also limited to -40 for the fuel temp. If you are using Jet-B or AvGas, you are good to -54 for start. For takeoff and landing, your limit is -54.

In other Citations, there are limits as to how cold the cabin can be before you attempt to start the engines, etc.

I'm attaching the Cessna Manual for Cold Weather Operations to this post, it has some really interesting charts starting on page 8 of the .pdf that show all the limits for all the Cessna line. Check 'em out!

[Sqwak_Ident]

I was told by a Caravan pilot that his company uses -56 as a cut off.

[altiplano]

-

[skymarc]

Nobody preheats turbine engines?

I know they will start but its not better on the equipment?

[chipmunk]

Nobody preheats turbine engines?

I know they will start but its not better on the equipment?

You bet we do. We plug our Garretts in (a Tanis/Reiff system) if the temperature is forecast to drop below 0; Put engine covers on, plugs in the exhaust, and they stay nice and cosy.
It's much easier on the equipment to start a pre-heated engine (less chance of overtemping the engine on a start, for example.)

[Cat Driver]

You get a longer life span with your ride and better performance if you make the effort to pre heat it, it even works with airplanes.

[skymarc]

-40 oil temp, -54 OAT for Garrets...

Why then do you have a restriction on the oil temps if you overheat the engines?

I saw 100 deg today on my 550 engine in my C185 at startup when I preheat with the reiff heaters with engine blanket @ -20.

[Ballsssssss]

Nobody preheats turbine engines?

I know they will start but its not better on the equipment?

You bet we do. We plug our Garretts in (a Tanis/Reiff system) if the temperature is forecast to drop below 0; Put engine covers on, plugs in the exhaust, and they stay nice and cosy.
It's much easier on the equipment to start a pre-heated engine (less chance of overtemping the engine on a start, for example.)

We also plug our Pratts in. Getting 30 - 40 degree cooler starts in -5 to -15 degree weather.

[chipmunk]

-40 oil temp, -54 OAT for Garrets...

Why then do you have a restriction on the oil temps if you overheat the engines?

Can you clarify your question?

You mean, why is minimum oil temp greater than the minimum OAT for Garretts?

[motox415]

DHC-8. -40 C. oil temp.

[ditar]

For any of our aircraft that are not hangared, we put Buddy heaters inside the cowlings and then put the engine tents on when it's below 0 C. That seems to keep the oil temp and engine above 0 even on very cold days. I've started a PT6 before that was cold soaked to -25 after the heater had quit overnight and I was a little concerned. It didn't start that much hotter than normal but it took quite a bit longer to spool up. Even though the POH says minimum oil temp for starts is -40, I don't think I'd ever try that.

[Doc]

You're at some northern shit hole. You back track to the end of the runway, and turn into a twenty knot wind. You start your takeoff roll. Your nose wheel caves. It's -55 outside. It's a thirty-five hundredl foot walk back to the buildings. How warmly dressed are your passengers? And how warmly dressed are you? Very good chance of at least a good case of frost bite. Worth it? You're my hero.

My limit is -40.

Circumstances alter cases. Out of a heated hangar. Destination The Bahamas. It's never too cold.

[mattedfred]

how about this scenario?

the OAT is very low but you're operating as per the AFM
you're in the middle of nowhere but you're operating as per the CARs and your Company Ops Manual by not carrying survival equipment
you're dressed appropriately but you feel that your clients/passengers etc are not

do you refuse to operate the flight until your clients/passengers put on some more clothes?

[Doc]

how about this scenario?

the OAT is very low but you're operating as per the AFM
you're in the middle of nowhere but you're operating as per the CARs and your Company Ops Manual by not carrying survival equipment
you're dressed appropriately but you feel that your clients/passengers etc are not

do you refuse to operate the flight until your clients/passengers put on some more clothes?

That's what I like about your posts...always an interesting twist. Easy answer though. Legal does NOT automatically mean SAFE. (And, sometimes, safe, may well not be legal) Given the choice, I'll take safe. Every time. I have refused boarding to passengers who were too lightly attired. I've never taken any flack over it. It's MY call as the skipper. They can always walk....

[ditar]

do you refuse to operate the flight until your clients/passengers put on some more clothes?

It is always a dilemma of mine when doing executive charters. Some women will show up in -35 or worse wearing a thin leather jacket and high heels. Some guys aren't any better (although none as of yet have showed up in high heels). At least doing crew changes the guys tend to be dressed in outdoor workwear.

[Doc]

do you refuse to operate the flight until your clients/passengers put on some more clothes?

It is always a dilemma of mine when doing executive charters. Some women will show up in -35 or worse wearing a thin leather jacket and high heels. Some guys aren't any better (although none as of yet have showed up in high heels). At least doing crew changes the guys tend to be dressed in outdoor workwear.

There is an easy fix to your dilemma. You will only have to send them home to change once. Then the "bar" is set. You'll find them dressed properly from then on.

[Donald]

As a captain you are responsible for the safety for the passengers. If they are too stupid to dress for the weather when you are taking them to a remote facility, then you must refuse them. If they give you shit, ask them to call their boss or you will do it for them. All the oil/gas/mining companies take safe operations very seriously, and in a matter like this they will back you up. The mine sites I have been to, the flight crews have been questioned when arriving why the pax aren't dressed properly and told to refuse them on future flights or risk losing business.

[Doc]

As a captain you are responsible for the safety for the passengers. If they are too stupid to dress for the weather when you are taking them to a remote facility, then you must refuse them. If they give you shit, ask them to call their boss or you will do it for them. All the oil/gas/mining companies take safe operations very seriously, and in a matter like this they will back you up. The mine sites I have been to, the flight crews have been questioned when arriving why the pax aren't dressed properly and told to refuse them on future flights or risk losing business.

BINGO

[ditar]

As a captain you are responsible for the safety for the passengers. If they are too stupid to dress for the weather when you are taking them to a remote facility, then you must refuse them. If they give you shit, ask them to call their boss or you will do it for them. All the oil/gas/mining companies take safe operations very seriously, and in a matter like this they will back you up. The mine sites I have been to, the flight crews have been questioned when arriving why the pax aren't dressed properly and told to refuse them on future flights or risk losing business.

You're totally correct, and I've never had a problem with those sort of workers under-dressing. It's more the executive types going for their weekly meetings to the city. I mean sure, we're in a twin engine plane flying from pavement to pavement in those cases, but I'm amazed they would even drive to the airport in such poor clothing. The case I described was by no means frequent but I have seen it a couple of times.