Can you legally continue the flight ...

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MrWings
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Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by MrWings »

with a failed airspeed indicator? Isn't that required equipment under 605.16? Or does the MEL preclude that for this historic aircraft?

Even if it is legal, would you?

Cool flight none-the-less.

http://www.prrecordgazette.com/ArticleD ... ?e=1438802
The weather rules the skies.

And nobody now knows that better than the two-man crew of the Mercy Flight Re-enactment.

Flight captain Tom Hinderks and his navigator, Curtis Peters, completed the Edmonton to Peace River leg of the journey last Tuesday, flying into the Peace River Airport to a crowd of cheering spectators. After the aircraft finally came to a halt in front of the Northern Air airplane hanger, the two crawled out of the open-top biplane, with signs of fatigue from the weather visibly showing.

“The flight has been a bit of a bear. On take off out of the City Center Airport in Edmonton, our air speed indicator failed,” Hinderks said. “So that’s like trying to drive a car without a speedometer.

“It wasn’t that big of deal in terms of safety, but it’s really difficult to fly without.”

The long-awaited flight was truly governed by Mother Nature, initially scheduled for the beginning of January but postponed numerous times because of the weather, whether it was the freezing temperatures or the thick snowfall. It seemed even when they managed to find a clear sky, the weather still played a part.

The crew made three stops before landing in Peace River just as the sun began to set; first at Westlock, then Slave Lake and finally High Prairie.

“About 50 miles out of Slave Lake, we got into really heavy mechanical turbulence and that comes from the wind coming off of the lake and hitting the hills and the valleys and it kicks it up,” Hinderks said. “It’s just like spraying water against a brick so it was really rough.

“The turbulence coming off the end off the runway was so bad that it kicked us up to a 75 degree angle, it really caught us off guard and at 500 feet, you really don’t need that. The wind was also very high – it was about 35 km/h down the runway so it made for an interesting [landing] with no air speed indicator and nasty turbulence throwing us around.”

As Hinderks and Peters continued to share stories about their journey, members of the community almost seemed to grow more wide-eyed as they heard about the conditions of the flight. Hearing firsthand from the two aviators about their journey helped to put the historic Mercy Flight carried out by Vic Horner and “Wop” May into perspective.

In 1929, Horner and May travelled north through Peace River to Fort Vermillion to deliver critically needed medical supplies for a diphtheria outbreak. The two carried 23 pounds of anti-toxin in an open-topped Avro bi-plane in the freezing winter conditions of Northern Alberta.

While Peters and Hinderks have received a heroes’ welcome along each leg of the journey, Peters said it’s not justified.

“Some of the other reporters asked what it was like to be a hero and I had to laugh and say, I’m a wanna-be, Wop was a hero,” he said. “Looking at what he did on a regular basis … he saw it needed to be done so he did it and that was that. We have satellite navigation and electric vests and thermal underwear and stuff like that, and we’re suffering, but guys like Wop May and Vic Horner just did because it needed to be done, period.

“Those guys were heroes and being a part of this trip has given me even more respect for them because as we’re trying to retrace their footsteps I realize exactly how feeble it is of me to [try to] fill their shoes.”

While the plane Curtis and Hinderks flew, the Spirit of Edmonton Blue Baron, was based on the 1929 model, Curtis explained the modern additions to the plane and the new technology was almost a hindrance.

“A major difference is it has a brand new engine,” he explained. “It’s only 80 to 90 hours old, but that’s been one of our biggest problems. The old engines were designed to hang out in the open and the cold and this one isn’t. A lot of the modern technology has actually been very detrimental.

“We put on our electric socks because it was going to be – 25 C and it took just 12 minutes for the batteries to freeze, and electric socks without working batteries are much worse than not having socks at all.

“So, even today with the modern avionics and modern radios, we were still relying on hand signals. Even with the technology, we’re still going back to what’s proven and what works.”

After the two left the reception, it seems the weather’s toll was too big and the leg from Peace River to Fort Vermillion had to be completed in a different fashion. Peters flew an enclosed modern aircraft and Hinderks drove. The Blue Baron remains in Peace River and Hinderks plans to complete the leg in open-cockpit bi-plane once he regains his health.
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Tim
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by Tim »

605.14 No person shall conduct a take-off in a power-driven aircraft for the purpose of day VFR flight unless it is equipped with

...

(c) an airspeed indicator;
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#605_14
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ScudRunner
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by ScudRunner »

does the string I tied to the strut count as an Airspeed Indicator?
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pika
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by pika »

The MEL does not cover airborne failures. Pilot's discretion governs.
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You can interpret that however you would like.
Aeros
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by Aeros »

pika wrote:The MEL does not cover airborne failures. Pilot's discretion governs.
True, but I think that the point that was trying to be made was in reference to:
The crew made three stops before landing in Peace River just as the sun began to set; first at Westlock, then Slave Lake and finally High Prairie.
Clearly the MEL isn't an issue on the way to the first stop but 605.14 it would have had to have played a roll prior to the next couple of legs.
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Canoehead
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by Canoehead »

There would not be an MEL for this aircraft.

First leg was legal. Subsequent legs... depends upon your interpretation of the CAR's. Was it equipped with an airspeed indicator? Yes.
Kinda like the old landing light at night with pax on board routine. Do you have to use it? Nope.
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mag check
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by mag check »

Even if it is legal, would you?
Why wouldn't you? Airspeed is the last instrument that I would consider "required" for safe flight.
What is it used for other than to check that your aircraft is cruising along the same speed it always does?
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Cat Driver
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by Cat Driver »

The dumbing down of aviation never fails to amaze me.
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MrWings
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by MrWings »

1. Thanks for the link to the CARS sections that I already quoted.

2. Yes, I realize if you are not breaking a reg if you have an instrument failure in flight.

3. Suprising that the airspeed indicator is now a worthless, unnecessary instrument to some.
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flyinthebug
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by flyinthebug »

mag check.. Are you serious? I always used my ASI, espically on approach etc. I suppose once you`ve flown a bird for 500+ hours you kinda get used to the settings vs airspeed.. BUT, what if you have 30 kts on the nose at some uncontrolled strip that you CANT see or be advised of? If your maintaining 110kts on the slope down and have 30-35 on the nose you didnt or couldnt see.. Now your approaching your vmc/vx and you think your clippin along at 110?. Isnt that being presented as a possible issue with the crew of 3407? Perhaps their ASI would have saved their lives? Just speculating of course.. I just dont see how you can say an ASI is the LEAST required instrument for safe flight? How about the VSI?

For me, the ASI was an included and important part of my scan. To fly without one is inviting tragedy.

Any subsequent leg they flew AFTER acknowledging their ASI was U/S, was illegal.

Fly safe all.
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by Highflyinpilot »

I was thinking that also about the ASI, It wouldnt trouble you magcheck if it wasnt serviceable.

I guess im not a true aviator because it would sure put me on edge while on approach if it wasnt working, not to say that if it is not working there would be a catastrophe, as said above you get to know what the aircraft feels like, but it would still trouble me a little.
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mag check
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by mag check »

flyinthebug wrote:mag check.. Are you serious? I always used my ASI, espically on approach etc. I suppose once you`ve flown a bird for 500+ hours you kinda get used to the settings vs airspeed.. BUT, what if you have 30 kts on the nose at some uncontrolled strip that you CANT see or be advised of? If your maintaining 110kts on the slope down and have 30-35 on the nose you didnt or couldnt see.. Now your approaching your vmc/vx and you think your clippin along at 110?. Isnt that being presented as a possible issue with the crew of 3407? Perhaps their ASI would have saved their lives? Just speculating of course.. I just dont see how you can say an ASI is the LEAST required instrument for safe flight? How about the VSI?

For me, the ASI was an included and important part of my scan. To fly without one is inviting tragedy.

Any subsequent leg they flew AFTER acknowledging their ASI was U/S, was illegal.

Fly safe all.

Ok, I will admit, it is an important instrument in imc conditions, but as I read that article, I got that they were flying an antique biplane, not a king air in ifr conditions.

IMO, in an aircraft such as that, the most important "airspeed" indicator is the control column in your hand.

This isn't launching the spaceshuttle here guys, IMO if you "need" the ASI to safely fly around VFR, you are gonna be in big trouble when it stops working.
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Tim
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by Tim »

while it's a legal requirement, its for a day vfr flight its hardly essential.

if you know what power setting goes with what performance, you dont need an asi.
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goldeneagle
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by goldeneagle »

Cat Driver wrote:The dumbing down of aviation never fails to amaze me.
Me too cat. Simply amazes me how many folks need 'regulations' because they cant think.

I can remember flying around as a teen ager in my little bug smasher (aeronca chief), and on more than one occaision, the pitot got plugged up with bug guts, the airspeed indicator stopped working. Heck, I even forgot to take the cover off once, and didn't realize it till I was airborne, with not enuf runway left to land strait ahead.

I guess i'm just lucky to be alive and tell the story. I'm pretty sure that paying attention during the 'attitudes' lessons had nothing to do with my survival, it was just blind luck that I was able to get that airplane onto the ground with no functional airspeed indicator.
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by Highflyinpilot »

You never noticed the ASI was covered till AFTER you took off, not very observant, thats a little scary, isnt that a little careless?
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goldeneagle
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by goldeneagle »

Highflyinpilot wrote:You never noticed the ASI was covered till AFTER you took off, not very observant, thats a little scary, isnt that a little careless?
Ya well, a 17 year old that has a young lady out to the airport to go for her first airplane ride has a tendancy to to be a little distracted. I learned something that day, have never blasted off with a pitot cover on since, and it's been more than 30 years now since that happened. I also learned, airplane flies just fine without an airspeed indicator.

Over that 30 years, I've had asi quit a couple of times too. I must be one of them real bad 'old school' farts too, cuz I even intentionally took off in a beaver without a functional asi twice. Wasn't really keen on staying overnight in the airplane tied up on some lake in the middle of nowhere while a crew flew out to 'fix it', so I flew her home, let them fix it overnight while I went drinking.

But hey, i've done dumber things than that over the years. Flew beavers around with boats hanging off the side of the plane. Even flew a 185 for a whole summer with no brakes. At the end of the summer, put it in the hanger for 2 months of maintanence, it came out, still no brakes, and I flew it all winter without em too. Pretty dumb eh ? No big deal, 185 doesn't have an MEL, so, I wasn't concerned about the paperwork.

I'm sure there's a whole slew of you young folks gonna be all over me about that 185, but, I'm equally sure old cat will be chuckling as he reads the responses, and so will a few more on here.
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by Cat Driver »


I'm sure there's a whole slew of you young folks gonna be all over me about that 185, but, I'm equally sure old cat will be chuckling as he reads the responses, and so will a few more on here.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry goldeneagle.
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by Highflyinpilot »

fair enough,Sounds like you got some pretty interesting stories, I hope When im old and gray i have good stories to tell my grandchildren (not saying your old and grey).

I gues back in the day things were a little diffrent. What do they call us, generation Y i think it is.
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goldeneagle
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by goldeneagle »

Cat Driver wrote:
I don't know whether to laugh or cry goldeneagle.
Why dont you explain it to them cat :)

For those just sitting back shaking heads at the stupidity of it all...

The 185 was on floats all summer, and, spent the winter on a set of strait skiis....
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by tiggermoth »

I gotta add my 2 cents.

It seems like a bunch of you have ignored to take into account the type of airplane being flown here: an old open cockpit biplane, not a King Air, jet, Navajo etc!!! :roll: Most likely, the takeoff, cruise and landing speeds are so close together that unless you are falling rapidly from the sky (stalled), you are going the right speed!!!! :D Also in an aircraft of this type, IFR approaches will NEVER happen, so exact airspeeds on the approach do not matter, if you start coming down to fast, more throttle to reduce descent rate, lower the nose for more speed. You will also know well in advance if you are close to the stall so you can correct with lots of time.
Hell, if you really want an idea how fast your going in an open cockpit biplane, stick your arm out the side and see how hard it is pushed back :mrgreen:
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flyinthebug
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by flyinthebug »

Goldeneagle.. Thanks for saving me the embarassment of calling you a dumb ass! lol. Ok, I admit I was lost a bit:/ Thanks also for reminding me how much I have to learn in this industry.

Tiggermoth.. Fair enough. We are comparing apples and oranges when your speaking of a VFR only bi-plane. I can fly by the seat of my pants.. I just prefer to know how fast my "a$$" is going down the slope..or even across the strait.

Fly safe all.
Cheers.
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by Cat Driver »

It seems like a bunch of you have ignored to take into account the type of airplane being flown here: an old open cockpit biplane, not a King Air, jet, Navajo etc!!! :roll:
King Airs, jets, Navajos do not fly using the same aerodynamics and follow the same laws of physics as an old open cockpit biplane?

If you lose the airspeed indication in these airplanes there are no other instruments to give you a clue as to your airspeed?
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by X Driver »

I think you had it right Cat, the dumbing down of aviation. Or the difference between PILOTS and AVIATORS. Its a good thing some of the newer generation doesn't have to fly the Canso or the Douglas Racer.
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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by Cat Driver »

The dumbing down has has put some of them into a whole new category X Driver, they are no longer aviators nor pilots.

They are turning out rote action system operators.

It is this paint by numbers training mindset that results in robots with a heart beat.

I wonder how they would make out flying a fully loaded DC6 on a beacon approach in real crap weather in the Arctic and landing on an ice strip with a stiff X wind at night with flare pots for runway markers?

Maybe they would just not land without a recent runway surface report to tell them how slippery it is? :rolleyes:
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


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Re: Can you legally continue the flight ...

Post by l_reason »

If you had the opportunity to take an old biplane for a ride without getting a checkout. Would you?

Where would you learn about its flying characteristics, in the 70 year old 12 page “Owners Manual” if not there then where?

Do you think you can manage to get it started and to the runway without a checklist?

Once you get past all that and your trucking down the runway trying to keep it strait with the tail up. You find a moment to glance at a gauge, where do you look? at the oil pressure or the airspeed? And why? Which one would you rather see at zero?

If you want to know what you should do, find someone that flies old tail wheel planes.
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