Keewatin Emergency

Disco Stu · Post by **Disco Stu** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:21 pm

Heard Keewatin landed in Gillam the other day after their chip light illumintated.

Gotta love SE-IFR in the north!

. . · Post by **. .** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:42 pm

i could think of nicer places to land then gillam. Though I'm sure it beats james bay with the polar bears.

Canus Chinookus · Post by **Canus Chinookus** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:15 pm

I can't believe it hasn't happened yet. Are these goofballs still flying direct Rankin to Coral harbour over the water( i mean, when there is water)?

split s · Post by **split s** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:19 pm

I can't think of a better place than Gillam if it's under your but when you need it!

PT6-114A · Post by **PT6-114A** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:38 pm

what were they flying??

. . · Post by **. .** » Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:52 pm

I imagine they are alluding to the PC-12.

Split S: well put.

joebloggs · Post by **joebloggs** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:36 am

I still think that th PC-12 is a geat aircraft, but those long hauls up in the high artic do sometimes push the envelope of what this plane is capable. I think they always fly at an altitude at which they are capable to glide to a suitable aerodrome/airport programmed in their FMS/GPS database. It sounds so simple but......

Guest295 · Post by **Guest295** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:06 am

Does Keewatin still file St. Andrews as an alternate for Winnipeg on Southbound flights? Is this legal?

Capt · Post by **Capt** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:45 am

everyone says the PC-12 is a great aircraft and has great glide specs. I'm sure it does, but how far can you glide when you flame out 400 ft after take-off, or out bound on an approach etc.
have fun with that.

ninjacrumb · Post by **ninjacrumb** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 9:59 am

Why wouldn't St Andrews be usable as an alternate? It can still be used as an alternate even if it has no TAF, read the CAP GEN. Heck you could land in YQT and use Kakabeka as an alternate if your plane could land on a strip that short and crappy.

Keewatin may even have an OPS SPEC that allows no alternate IFR. Now that would be nice to have.

Pratt · Post by **Pratt** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:02 pm

No alternate IFR in a single engine aircraft? I doubt that an ops spec is available for that. Does anybody know for sure?

Northern Flyer · Post by **Northern Flyer** » Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:06 pm

I realy don't know what would be so great about flying IFR without an alternate.

Flyin' Hi · Post by **Flyin' Hi** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:33 am

Maybe it's just me, but i like to know that there is some kind of back up plan if I am not going to be able to get into my destination. I don't know why anyone wouldn't want to plan an alternate?

Canus Chinookus · Post by **Canus Chinookus** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:30 am

joebloggs, I was once told by a keewatin pilot that the pc-12 will glide an amazing 50nm from FL220! Now, draw a straight line from rankin to coral harbour, and tell me where 50 nm gets you once you're outside of 50nm from either point?? That's right, you won't even make land at some points along your track.

confuzed · Post by **confuzed** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:59 am

Guest295 wrote:Does Keewatin still file St. Andrews as an alternate for Winnipeg on Southbound flights? Is this legal?

Why wouldn't it be legal?? We use ST. Andrews as an alternate going into YWG all the time in the King Air. I only use it though when it works by the GFA, which is pretty much all you can do I believe. Almost had to land there once when YWG shut down for about 15-20 mins while we were inbound one day. Only one runway open and someone found a hole in it on their rollout

hz2p · Post by **hz2p** » Fri Jan 28, 2005 2:26 pm

You guys need to get out more ... in the USA, even part 91 doesn't need an IFR alternate if the 1-2-3 rule applies to the destination wx. I've always thought it was really stupid it wasn't the same up north here in the People's Republic of Canada.

CP · Post by CP » Sat Jan 29, 2005 4:43 am

You can carry a few more pax out of short strips with most aircraft if you leave unecessary fuel behind. Here is the reg.

724.27 No Alternate Aerodrome - IFR Flight

For an air operator of aeroplanes to qualify to conduct a flight under IFR without naming an alternate aerodrome on the flight plan the following standard shall be met:

(1) Area of Operations

(a) take-off aerodrome shall be:

(i) situated within the North American continent, the Caribbean islands and Bermuda; and

(ii) not more than the hours of flight time (Scheduled) from the aerodrome of intended landing;

(b) aerodrome of intended landing authorized for no alternate IFR shall meet the requirements of subsection (3) below; and

(c) provided the requirements of subsections (2), (3), (4), (5) and (6) are met, the pilot-in-command may refile "No Alternate IFR" on flights to a destination aerodrome in Canada, regardless of the location of the departure aerodrome, when within six hours of the scheduled destination aerodrome.

(2) Weather Requirements

For at least one (1) hour before and until one (1) hour after the estimated time of arrival at the aerodrome of intended landing, there shall be, in respect to that aerodrome:

(a) no fog or other restrictions to visibility, including precipitation, whether forecast or reported, below 3 miles;
(amended 1998/06/01; previous version)

(b) no thunderstorms, whether isolated or otherwise forecast or reported;
(amended 1998/06/01; previous version)

(c) a forecast ceiling of at least 1,000 feet above FAF altitude and a visibility of at least 3 miles or a ceiling of at least 1,500 feet above the MDA and a visibility of at least 6 miles; and

(d) no freezing precipitation whether forecast or reported;
(amended 1998/06/01; previous version)

(3) Aerodrome of Intended Landing - Requirements

(a) the aerodrome of intended landing shall be:

(i) equipped with at least two (2) separate runways each of which shall be operational and suitable for a safe landing for the aeroplane type, taking into consideration the approved operational limitations; and

NOTE:
The reciprocal of one runway is not acceptable as the second runway.

(ii) equipped with emergency or standby electrical power supply in support of the main electrical power supply used to operate all equipment and facilities that are essential to the safe landing of the aeroplane, whether such landing be by day or by night;

(4) Flight Dispatch Requirements

The Operation Control System shall be Type A or Type B as applicable;

(5) Fuel Requirements

The minimum fuel required for a no alternate IFR flight plan must meet the requirements of section 704.20 of the Canadian Aviation Regulations and shall include the following:

(a) taxi fuel;

(b) fuel to destination;

(c) contingency fuel;

(d) holding reserve fuel; and

(e) fuel for flights in International and Northern Airspace shall be additional contingency fuel or enroute reserve fuel, whichever is the greater; and

(6) Aerodrome Familiarization

Pilots shall be thoroughly familiar with all suitable diversionary aerodromes which are available (within the fuel and oil reserve carried) in respect of any flight operated on a "no alternate IFR" basis.

If you use YAV as your alternate for YWG, the fuel requirements as I recall are the same or less than what is required under the no alt authority.100 lbs.

Sasquash · Post by **Sasquash** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:25 am

CP

what you got here is the Standard of the actual reg which reads as follow:

No Alternate Aerodrome - IFR Flight

704.27 For the purposes of Section 602.122, a person may conduct an IFR flight where an alternate aerodrome has not been designated in the IFR flight plan or in the IFR flight itinerary, if the person

(a) is authorized to do so in an air operator certificate; and

(b) complies with the Commercial Air Service Standards.

The reg tells us what the rule is, the standard explains how to go about it, in theory....

CP · Post by CP » Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:46 am

I stand corrected.

Check Pilot · Post by **Check Pilot** » Sat Jan 29, 2005 5:42 pm

Note that the regulation is applicable to Commuter Operations i.e. 9 to 19 passengers and small turbojet. The PC 12 likely operates under air taxi - CAR 703.

Merlinman · Post by **Merlinman** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:34 am

When I worked for Keewatin things were done differently than what I've been hearing around here....

The glide ratio for a PC-12/45 (if I can remember was 14:1) As for flying YYQ-YZS, direct is ok if a proper raft was carried with life vests etc... which I did several times. The learjet had a proper raft which we borrowed, but nonetheless I WAS a little nervous flying something like CHurchill direct to Iqualuit!! Not trying to get off topic, I ALWAYS filed an RNAV waypoint allowing the flight to maintain gliding distance to shore plus 10 miles. This was dependant on FD strength and intended cruising altitude, of course.

I NEVER filed CYAV as an alternate, ever.

We never had an OPs spec for no alternate IFR.

The PC12 CAN return to the departure runway at or above 400'AGL in the event of an engine failure. You couldn't pass your ride in the SIM if you crashed... which you also had an engine-out at 10,000' and were required to land at a near-by airport in IFR conditions (1000' ceiling I think?!?)

ALSO.. the survival gear on board the A/C was 65lbs which included sleeping bags, tents, food, fuel heaters and more.

Keewtain was a great company to work for loved every minute of the experience, except for the cold

It would be a shame if the operations were actually slipping from when I left. Everyone had 5000+ hours in the left seat years ago, but that just isn't viable anymore.

Oh, and I doubt it was a PC12 to emergency land in Gillam. After the RCMP "shut-down" near GooseBay some 7 years ago, the chip detector was disabled airbourne on the aircraft to prevent 'nervous pilots' from shutting-down a good motor. The squat switch had to be depressed for a minimum of 3 minutes for the light to illuminate. (unless that changed too?!?)

Hope this clarifies the many misconceptions I've been hearing!

Schlem · Post by **Schlem** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:29 pm

Canus Chinookus wrote:Now, draw a straight line from rankin to coral harbour, and tell me where 50 nm gets you once you're outside of 50nm from either point??

Better go look at your map again...

50nm from CYZS entoute to CYRT still has you over land... in fact, 110nm from CYZS is the shoreline of Southampton Island.

FYI... the CHIP light was an indication problem and the crew did the right thing by diverting to Gillam.

FYI... in the 6+ years Keewatin has been flying PC-12s in the arctic, putting on well over 20,000 hours, this is the first engine related diversion.

Schlem · Post by **Schlem** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 9:37 pm

Merlinman wrote: As for flying YYQ-YZS, direct is ok if a proper raft was carried with life vests etc... which I did several times.

Keewatin will never fly direct YYQ-YZS over the bay... always north to YRT first then east to YZS.

Johnny · Post by **Johnny** » Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:20 pm

Merlinman wrote:Oh, and I doubt it was a PC12 to emergency land in Gillam. After the RCMP "shut-down" near GooseBay some 7 years ago, the chip detector was disabled airbourne on the aircraft to prevent 'nervous pilots' from shutting-down a good motor. The squat switch had to be depressed for a minimum of 3 minutes for the light to illuminate. (unless that changed too?!?)

Chip light now works in flight (Series 10).

Merlinman · Post by **Merlinman** » Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:35 am

Schlem wrote:
Merlinman wrote: As for flying YYQ-YZS, direct is ok if a proper raft was carried with life vests etc... which I did several times.
Keewatin will never fly direct YYQ-YZS over the bay... always north to YRT first then east to YZS.

Why not?? We did for years.... YYQ-YZS or YRT-CYFB(Iqaluit) direct with the raft. But it is a good practice now as I am sure you no longer have that $1500 raft....

And to be politically correct Schlem, that would not be the first engine related diversion Keewatin has had. If you are an employee with Keewatin or know GVKC, you would know about the second oil pressure gauge by the captain's left knee and a little history about that too.

(and it's nice to know they re-modified the chip Johnny.... it would be nicer to know of 'impending silence' 10 miles after departure rather than 300 miles from a human being!)

Keewatin Emergency

Keewatin Emergency

No alt

assumptions laid to rest

Re: assumptions laid to rest

Re: assumptions laid to rest

Re: assumptions laid to rest