RNP "Short Gate"

Dave T · Post by **Dave T** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:45 am

I think this has been discussed before but just wondering if there could possibly be a better way for it to be handled on the radio. Could there just be some kind of an understanding with ATC that you guys always want to do it if able? I think every other pilot is getting tired of being slowed down, given a crossing time, given a hold, and then getting onto a very busy arrival controller only to hear Westjet saying "they're all set up and looking for the RNP short gate". Of course they're told unable you're number 10 for the approach. I am all for saving time and money and in good weather I'd like to ask for direct the beacon for the visual everywhere I go but I don't when it's busy because I know it is not going to happen.

Not trying to start a fight, just something that has been clogging up the radios a lot lately.

Clint23 · Post by **Clint23** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:04 am

We got a memo from our Ops that came from Nav Can asking that we plan to do the short gate RNPs whenever possible.....so then we start doing it and we get a lot of "sorry, unable" Just doin' what we are told!.

Cheers

tapaflyguy · Post by **tapaflyguy** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:55 am

For all of you "non RNP users", you are behind the times. This is the way of future navigation. Go to the USA, the new LNAV/VNAV WAAS approaches now outnumber CAT 1 ILS's. If it wasn't for RNP Alaska Airlines would not be servicing certain destinations in Alaska. In time everyone will be doing the RNP Departures and Approaches worldwide. It is safe, reliable, and ATC can forget about us as they know where we are, and where we are going. I believe someone has posted a video of the RNP on Youtube, check it out and learn about it, instead of whining about it! It always seems in life when people whine and complain they are jealous of others accomplishments.

Dave T · Post by **Dave T** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:09 pm

The first reply answered my question.

tapaflyguy wrote:check it out and learn about it, instead of whining about it! It always seems in life when people whine and complain they are jealous of others accomplishments.

I wasn't whining at all. I think that RNP is the future and wish that my plane had that kind of equipment. It saves time, fuel, and can increase safety. But it does not matter if ATC knows exactly what you will be doing if they have 10 airplanes to vector from different directions to final. Having you set up to fly a short final doesn't really help in that situation.

Rotten Apple #1 · Post by **Rotten Apple #1** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:45 pm

Dave T, I get what you're saying and i'm sure we'll resolve the communication protocols. In time. We have one guy dedicated to doing nothing more than addressing RNP matters. To help speed the process along, perhaps you could utilize whatever means available to you to make your opinions formally known (AQD? TC?).

The Short Gate program is a wonderful asset to WJ, but not without pitfalls, like any new venture.

JD

Tiny Voices · Post by **Tiny Voices** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:31 pm

When we set up for the short transition, the full arrival and approach procedure are still in the box. When approved by ATC, we select and execute, then fly the approach via the appropriate transition. Don't get approved for the transition, don't touch a thing. Just continue on past on the published STAR. More likely than not, if there are 10 other aircraft approaching the airport, that is what will happen. I have yet to hear of anyone getting slowed down, held, delaying vectored, whatever, so that we can fly the short gate. Quite the opposite actually. It is us who shall conform...and quite rightly so.

I will make a personal effort to cut down on the verbal diarrhea and just state the desired approach via the transition. Eg. WestJet 700 request the RNP 34 via Selev.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:51 pm

I for one applaud WestJet's shortgate procedures for one specific reason.

The creation of the Waypoing: MIVAG

ziggy · Post by **ziggy** » Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:17 pm

The nice thing about the RNP's is that they are are very predictable with timing for ATC. Set speeds at set waypoints make it a lot easier for them when it comes to proper spacing between aircraft.

Lpsi · Post by **Lpsi** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:07 am

Why Not just say " Can we just go ahead of everyone?"
Or
Looking for Present Position Direct "Max profit share"

Really guys, when the en route controller hands you to arrivals listen out on the new freq. for say 15-20 seconds and then decide is it really that brilliant an idea to ask for a controller to bless you with a special request. I know you are all a great bunch of guys because I know a lot of you and when your in my place you have manners. Don't forget them when you go about your business. I personally couldn't give two hoots if you go in front of me, I am only bothered by the neediness in the repeated requesting. In the interest of airman ship please lighten up the load on the controllers. You are not making the day go by any quicker.

balfour · Post by **balfour** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:20 am

OMFG

ziggy · Post by **ziggy** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:28 pm

Uhhhh, as per an earlier response, ATC requests that we plan for these short transitions, hence asking for them.

twinpratts · Post by **twinpratts** » Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:17 pm

"clogging up the Radios?"

Four1oh · Post by **Four1oh** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:06 am

Clogging, like the enroute reports by certain companies north and southbound in Manitoba?

riiight.

marquisman · Post by **marquisman** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:08 am

We were asked by Gander last night if we wanted the short gate on 29 in YYT. Didn't even ask.They expect it now.

WS739 · Post by **WS739** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:35 am

The fact is WestJet built, tested and paid for the technology to save money and make routes more efficient. They were pioneers in the technology in Canada and airlines are signing up for it every week. So let them be! Fly your RNAV STAR and be happy!

Herc_Driver · Post by **Herc_Driver** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:03 pm

Lpsi wrote: Really guys, when the en route controller hands you to arrivals listen out on the new freq. for say 15-20 seconds and then decide is it really that brilliant an idea to ask for a controller to bless you with a special request.

Yup, one can sure get a FULL picture of the traffic situation by waiting and listening for a full 15-20 seconds on a new frequency ...

Lpsi wrote: ............ looking for the RNP short gate ..........

Yeah, that is so totally irritating .... completely unlike the guys who come onto the radio and ask direct the beacon, direct the FAF and so on. That's totally different.

balfour · Post by **balfour** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:31 pm

Herc_Driver wrote:
Lpsi wrote: Really guys, when the en route controller hands you to arrivals listen out on the new freq. for say 15-20 seconds and then decide is it really that brilliant an idea to ask for a controller to bless you with a special request.
Yup, one can sure get a FULL picture of the traffic situation by waiting and listening for a full 15-20 seconds on a new frequency ...

Lpsi wrote: ............ looking for the RNP short gate ..........
Yeah, that is so totally irritating .... completely unlike the guys who come onto the radio and ask direct the beacon, direct the FAF and so on. That's totally different.

I asked for it twice today in YYC just to piss you off. I hope you heard me.

Herc_Driver · Post by **Herc_Driver** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:51 pm

balfour wrote: I asked for it twice today in YYC just to piss you off. I hope you heard me.

I guess the "roll eyes"/sarcasm emoticon ...

..... didn't quite get through to you did it.

Don't worry, as soon as I get onto the arrival freq I ask for direct the beacon all the time for the same reason ............. just to piss Lpsi off.

balfour · Post by **balfour** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:13 pm

Comment was ment for Dave T. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I just love asking now. I even asked arrival knowing they would only pass on the "request", love it.

complexintentions · Post by **complexintentions** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:22 am

Professional, through and through.

Herc_Driver · Post by **Herc_Driver** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:07 am

Warning for all posters ..... cease and desist all tongue in cheek posts for fear of being labelled ...

complexintentions wrote:Professional, through and through.

burly · Post by **burly** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:22 am

Well ill through my 2 cents into the ring.... I dont know about other terminals but in CYYC we know your planning the short RNP everytime, why you say, because your company repeatedly sends us letters telling us to. Just this morning i walked in to read the 3rd letter this year saying "please give our pilots the RNP" Its starting to be a running joke. Guys are very accomodating with your requests, but it was said earlier that if its 6pm on a thursday and you have been slowed or given a crossing time, and then to come in to request the short gate it just pisses controllers off. We know you want the Short RNP for fuel savings but when your number 10, sometimes things just dont work that way.

The nice thing about the RNP's is that they are are very predictable with timing for ATC

I would disagree with this. With CRDA in YYC and sequencing at the intersection we as a group find them very hard to judge, hence the usual transmission "ill let you know closer in" .Sometimes we need the Westjet guys to be very flexible to make this work, and 95% of the time they are, however sometimes it just wont work. On the flip side, if your running a single runway operation then yes they are predictable.

I like the RNP approaches and their objective and whenever it works ill use them. I think they are the way of the future, but to make them work in a busy terminal the workload goes up. Come in to the ACC if you get a chance and we'll show you what we mean. Until then ill wait for another letter from Westjet Ops, which will probably come in 2 weeks, to tell us we need to give Westjet the Short RNP everytime.

Sorry for the rant....

Clint23 · Post by **Clint23** » Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:52 am

burly wrote:Well ill through my 2 cents into the ring.... I dont know about other terminals but in CYYC we know your planning the short RNP everytime, why you say, because your company repeatedly sends us letters telling us to. Just this morning i walked in to read the 3rd letter this year saying "please give our pilots the RNP" Its starting to be a running joke. Guys are very accomodating with your requests, but it was said earlier that if its 6pm on a thursday and you have been slowed or given a crossing time, and then to come in to request the short gate it just pisses controllers off. We know you want the Short RNP for fuel savings but when your number 10, sometimes things just dont work that way.

The nice thing about the RNP's is that they are are very predictable with timing for ATC
I would disagree with this. With CRDA in YYC and sequencing at the intersection we as a group find them very hard to judge, hence the usual transmission "ill let you know closer in" .Sometimes we need the Westjet guys to be very flexible to make this work, and 95% of the time they are, however sometimes it just wont work. On the flip side, if your running a single runway operation then yes they are predictable.

I like the RNP approaches and their objective and whenever it works ill use them. I think they are the way of the future, but to make them work in a busy terminal the workload goes up. Come in to the ACC if you get a chance and we'll show you what we mean. Until then ill wait for another letter from Westjet Ops, which will probably come in 2 weeks, to tell us we need to give Westjet the Short RNP everytime.

Sorry for the rant....

Thanks Burly;

that gives a good perspective. I was understanding that ATC wanted us to use the RNP whenever possible. We got an email from ops saying that some WS guys were not planning ahead to use them and were refusing them in order to do visuals instead. Our memo instructed us to "request the short gate RNP on initial contact to the approach controller" or something to that effect, to let the controller know we were ready to accept the short gate.

Thanks again for the ATC perspective.

Cheers

CAL · Post by **CAL** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:10 am

why is it called short gate?

Rotten Apple #1 · Post by **Rotten Apple #1** » Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:33 am

I believe it's a downhill skiing term. Or from Super Mario Kart.

Whatever, it's a shortcut.

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