Young pilots...

[Boeing boy]

Hi

I've been thinking about something for a while now after finding out about it on a couple of websites. I found that people under 18 and still fly airplanes. So, I could be 12 and not even have my driver's licence and still fly an airplane. Not to sound rude to the younger people out there, but in my opinion that is just f***ing retarded. Asides from the safety issue, it would make commercial pilots or any other pilot that flies for a living look like nothing to some people because they think "oh a ten year old can do it, big deal". In reality no they can;t, and theres few pilots under 18 anyway. But, I feel like it degrades the real pilots too. I don't mean to offend someone, but if I was a lawmaker, my first responsibility would be to restrict flying under 18 years of age completely. What do you guys think?

[iflyforpie]

I drove a car at age 9.

[nimbostratus]

I started flying at 17. I thought I did OK.

Nimbo

[Invertago]

One of the best students I sent solo was 14... one of my worst students is late 40's. I think people should have to be examined and have a stamp on their medical certificating them as a non-idiot prior to commencing training for any license.

From my own personal experience, the easiest people to teach a new skill to are the late teens to early 20's age group. People learn best at a younger age while older guys often have a hard time learning new things but may have an advantage of past experience to draw on and make up the gap. Not just in flying, watch a 5 year old learn a second language, much easier for them then a 60 year old trying to learn a new language etc.

[180]

I drove a car at age 9.

I was a Grandfather at age 9.

[Boeing boy]

Wow, I completely agree with invertago...even 17yrs old to late-twenties would be the easiest age group to teach. But, imagine that 14 yr old in an emergency. Anyone can fly a plane "when the sea is calm".

[Boeing boy]

Oh..and yes people definetely learn better at a younger age, but not too young either. When I immigrated to Canada from Europe in 2001, it took me about a year to learn English while it took my 40 yr old dad about 4 years.

[Adam Oke]

Hi

I've been thinking about something for a while now after finding out about it on a couple of websites. I found that people under 18 and still fly airplanes. So, I could be 12 and not even have my driver's licence and still fly an airplane. Not to sound rude to the younger people out there, but in my opinion that is just f***ing retarded. Asides from the safety issue, it would make commercial pilots or any other pilot that flies for a living look like nothing to some people because they think "oh a ten year old can do it, big deal". In reality no they can;t, and theres few pilots under 18 anyway. But, I feel like it degrades the real pilots too. I don't mean to offend someone, but if I was a lawmaker, my first responsibility would be to restrict flying under 18 years of age completely. What do you guys think?

I think that the points you bring up do not make for a good argument.

How is it a safety issue and where are the numbers to back that statement up? Safety of a student is reliant on the instructor. When the instructor trains a student, they will not send them solo until they are safe. Period. Licenses have set standards, and you can not obtain one without meeting said standards, and proving that you have acquired the appropriate skill set and knowledge base. Even more so for a CPL.

Why do you think the age of someone with the appropriate skill set and knowledge base degrades degrades 'elder' pilots? Do you think the same for Doctors? Engineers? Lawyers? Carpenters? Welders? Heck, any profession period?

And when the heck does someone become one of these "real pilots" that you express?

[Invertago]

Based on my last oh, 20 students, the under 30 group has far out performed the over 30 group on the pace of their training progress, their flying ability has been far superior, their test marks higher (flight test marks higher, written exam results are similar), they get to solo earlier, they pick up new skills and accomplish lesson objectives earlier etc.

I was going to say that the young under 20 crowd is more prone to pushing their limits... but I've had a few students show up prepared for a solo lesson and make their own no-go decision stating that they are not comfortable with the weather. So, I can't even say that the young guys have much of a invulnerability feeling either.

I'd be curious to see what age group causes the most fatal accidents in Canada.

What do some of you other instructors out there think.

1. Who is easier to teach, young students or old ones?

2. Who would do you feel safer with?
The 60 year old PPL holder with 100hrs experience in the past 2 years
or
The 20 year old ppl with 100hrs experience in the past 2 years?


3. What about the 60yo with 300 hrs over the past 30 years
or
The 20yo with 80hrs over the past year?

[canwhitewolf]

lots of bomber command pilots during WW11 were very young and flew lancasters into battle as captain of the plane with very few hours comparitively speaking , and fighter cxommand as well, but of course they were not 16 either, but some were very young

ive seen lotsa 40 yr olds act more like 10 year olds at times and ive thought to myself.."that guy flies a plane"!

I dont think there should be an 18 yr old restriction thats too restrictive

[Cat Driver]

This age thing is an interesting subject when it comes to flying.

I started flying in my teens and my first job was crop spraying in the tobacco fields of Southern Ontario.

Now after a few more years of flying I do believe I am better and safer than when I was young.

[Invertago]

Now after a few more years of flying I do believe I am better and safer than when I was young.

But that has nothing to do with the few thousands of hours of experience now does it? Pretend you are your age now but only have 100 flying experience over 2 years... (so erase all those memories). In your opinion would you be safer now with a 2 year old log book and 100 hours or back when you where a teen with 100hrs? Not a real scientific thing to answer unless we format your brain, but give us your 2cents.

Naturally you ought to be safer now after thousands of hours of experience.

[YoungPunk]

But, I feel like it degrades the real pilots too.

If a person regardless of their age can earn a pilots license then they are a "real pilot". period. I hope that doesn't offend all you fake pilots out there.

I have to admit I'm getting really sick of this whole age profileing thing! I started training at 17 and I seemed to do just fine. Would it be kind of creepy to get in a plane with a 14 year old flying? Yeah, but hey if he/she has done the training and knows what they're doing whats the difference, really?

[iflyforpie]

If a person regardless of their age can earn a pilots license then they are a "real pilot". period. I hope that doesn't offend all you fake pilots out there.

I say it over again and again. Age has very little to do with it. I would say the younger students have an edge on energy, confidence, and ability to absorb knowledge. The older generation has an edge on life experiences, thought organization, and ability to exercise restraint.

I've seen 14 year olds who were too immature and distractable (ADHD?) to effectively learn to fly an aircraft. Many of the 40+ professionals were also challenging because they read too much into each situation, and they couldn't accept that someone less than half their age was in a position of authority, teaching them to fly.

It comes down to the individual. Some are early learners and have more exposure or better opportunities for flying. Some have financial restrictions or other priorities that keep them from flying until later in life. I don't think the age of the person 'cheapens' the profession. I think is does credit to the 14 year old who can safely fly an aircraft. Obviously there has to be a minimum age but I don't think the current age standards need changing.

[mcrit]

Yeah, a bright 12 year old can very likely fly a C152.......in good weather.......during the day.....with no cross wind........no turbulence......and assuming nothing goes wrong. Change any of those conditions and I'm not so sure.......

[Cat Driver]

But that has nothing to do with the few thousands of hours of experience now does it? Pretend you are your age now but only have 100 flying experience over 2 years... (so erase all those memories).

I can only answer this by saying that I personally see no difference in my ability to absorb new knowledge now than when I was in my teens.

Just prior to retiring the people who I was flying for were trying to get me to keep training to compete in the unlimited aerobatics competitions, my teacher felt that my ability to learn new things was at a high enough level that they were paying for my training.

Furthermore I had no difficulty absorbing the fly by wire technology at Airbus Industries, so from my personal perspective I see no difference in my learning ability now than when I was a teenager.

In your opinion would you be safer now with a 2 year old log book and 100 hours or back when you where a teen with 100hrs? Not a real scientific thing to answer unless we format your brain, but give us your 2cents.

I can not answer that because I have no real way to compare it.

Naturally you ought to be safer now after thousands of hours of experience.

I have spent the past few decades teaching older pilots who are already high time and fly complex aircraft, I personally prefer teaching the older ones to the teenagers, but that is only my preference probably based on the peer thing.

As to age and the ability to fly I always use my personal icon Bob Hoover as a benchmark for ability to fly, Bob was in his eighties when I last watched him fly the Twin Commander....he did O.K. for his age.

[Skyhunter]

Well as one planning on teaching my son to fly (he turns 14 in June) this summer, I have got to say I totally disagree with the age thing. I started at 17 and wish I could have started earlier. Having seen they way kids pick things up, watching my kid learn to snowboard this year in about a quarter the time it took, I do not think learning to land in a changing crosswind is going to be an issue.

I will admit that at a younger age you are more prone to take risks, at least I was. I did a few thing that others might think were dumb things in air plane, in Dad's van, on my buddies motorcycle. I did learn from the all and personally they were within my risk level and if I was young again would probably still do them even with the knowledge I have now. I have soot guns since I was 10, my kids have shot since they were 6. They have both had hunting licenses and age 12. I would completely trust them in the bush on their own with them. I think that anything that is hands on skill is best learned young.

I look at this way also, I would rather let my boy take an airplane up solo than hand him the keys to the car. The odds of someone else hitting him or cutting him off etc is way lower flying than driving. Most of what he will have to deal with is environment and correcting his own errors. To me, safer than being on the 417, no?

[C-FKLY]

I disagree with the age thing too. I started flying, and soloed at the age of 14. To the original poster -- when I got my Rec Permit at 16, I had never been behind the wheel of a car -- and frankly, it's much safer being up there anyways (well, at least on Canada's roads).

I say it's all about attitude. When most people picture a 14 year old, they generalize someone who's, well, iflyforpie said it right -- ADHD. But there are many teenagers that are more professional and more intelligent than most are in their 40s. Age should not be the restriction -- IQ and attitude should be, and thankfully the written tests can partly take care of that. As long as they can reach the pedals, if someone's got the right mindset, sure, they could fly a plane at any age.

[Invertago]

I can only answer this by saying that I personally see no difference in my ability to absorb new knowledge now than when I was in my teens.

Just prior to retiring the people who I was flying for were trying to get me to keep training to compete in the unlimited aerobatics competitions, my teacher felt that my ability to learn new things was at a high enough level that they were paying for my training.

Furthermore I had no difficulty absorbing the fly by wire technology at Airbus Industries, so from my personal perspective I see no difference in my learning ability now than when I was a teenager.

Thats more of an example of adding to an already existing knowledge base, like a VFR pilot getting their IFR. I'm talking going from 0 to first solo new with no background knowledge. I suspect you would take longer to solo now starting from 0 then you would have as a teenager.

Lets take a skill completely foreign to you (I assume). I bet I could teach a teenage guy to knit a sweater faster then I could teach you to do the same since neither of you have any basic foundational knowledge of the subject (again assuming here).

As for Bob Hoover, I'm pretty sure he didn't just learn to fly recently. But I bet he would be slower to adapt a new unrelated to flying skill then your average teen.

There are many extremely capable old guys out there, but that capability comes from experience. I think age often hinders learning new unrelated skills. They say learning your second language is the hardest, but the 3rd 4th and 5th are easier. Kids pick up new unfamiliar skills faster then most adults, their brains are still making new connections while adults learn slower as they age but they have a greater knowledge base to start with.

[matt777]

I think that a 12 year old flying a plane is a little out there but I think that there is no problem flying at 15 or 16. I personally soloed in a car and a plane on the same day! I passed my driver's test, drove to the airport and did a few circuits on my own!

[Shiny Side Up]

There are only two problems I have with younger students.

The first is the simple fact that some have a lot of growing physically to do to and some times mentally to be up to the task. There are only so many pillows I can stack them on to reasonably safely control the airplane. Mentally I say because the biggest hurdle is not often learning how to fly, but getting past the written side of things. In many cases, their level of education is lacking at this point. This is something I feel is getting steadily worse with the education system.

Dealing with the parents is the other side of things. I don't know how many I've had to take aside because of their interference with their son/daughter's training. Pilot parents have got to be the worst in a lot of cases - having to break it to a kid that his Dad doesn't have a clue is a tough nut to crack. Parent's living vicariously through their children is another bad one - there's no better way to get someone to hate something than to make them do it - After all, I can remember when my parents made me take piano lessons. I've even had where parent's misguided "help" has hurt a young man's ability to learn which was particularly bad.

Personally when I get younger students its best if its their initiative that brings them to me and I see them asking the questions. If its Mom and Dad doing all the talking while junior plays his iPod then I usually explain to them that their child probably ain't the next aviation prodigy no matter how much he likes SuperDuperAceAircombat4Alpha.

[Tim]

as i was a cad-idiot (air cadet), i had both my GPL and PPL before i was old enough to hold the lic. in otherwords i did my flight tests and could not fly for a few days while i waited to turn 16/17 for each

[black hole]

A good story, but true. My aviation career started when I was 12, and my father started an airport. He had this old army jeep with a PTO and a drag mower. My older brother and I where checked out on mowing the runway, and we took turns at the helm; first gear in low range, a little more than walking speed. Well as we where finishing the job (Sunday Lunch time) I was at the wheel; and recalling what my grandfather had told me about how transmissions work); I was comming from the far end of the runway, in high gear,( about 60 MPH). Dad was walking out to call us for lunch. I was just about touch down speed, and came to a screeching stop next to Dad and got my ass kicked. I don't think I touched ground for at least a week. ( up is good). Learned to fly at 17. dad told the instructor not to let me solo until I had at least 10 hours. ( is sleeping OK while instructing)( I knew I had to make good landings, Because he was a mean SOB). Awarded my License on me 18th birthday. My brother kept saying your CRAZY. CPL,ATPL, AME 1&2 well maybe.

BH

[Cat Driver]

I think age often hinders learning new unrelated skills.

O.K. Invertigo I have read all this over again and I finally have realized that I am a slow learner and you are correct.

I left the flight training forum because my ideas on flying training do not mesh all that well with you younger people who have the advantage of youth and the piece of paper from TC that puts you in a position of superiority to us older feeble minded types.

I do however want to assure you that even though I may be slow now in my old age, I do eventually get it.

I shall resolve not to allow myself to get into any further discussions regarding flying training or any other subject with you and hopefully that will benefit both of us.

The part that has finally sunk in is I actually thought that maybe I could be a mentor to the younger generation and pass on some tips on teaching people how to fly. Obviously I was being naive.

I apologize for my ignorance.

[Hornblower]

Wayne Gretsky started playing hockey when he was two! Think that pissed off Guy Lafleur??? Yup the 12-year-olds are wreckin' airplanes all over the place. Best place for 'em is in front of the video game console eh? Charles Lindbergh's dad gave him his first rifle when he was 6. He promptly took it and went out hunting. Never killed anything but squirrels and rabbits. What a dumbass comment!!