100Hr Instructor job?!?!!!!!

[206bushboy]

ok i dont know what to say here i just saw a job up on here for a float instructor with a minimum 100hrs floats..... wtf?

ok i have 500 hrs on floats and think i could possibly do a mildly ok job at teaching someone to fly floats, but even so id think im not the best man for the job

kind of reminds me what my 2thousand+ instructor told me, that in floats with 500 hours you will probably encounter most difficult situations maybe once or twice, not saying you'll be good at it but you'll certianly know better next time, what needs to be done to get'er done..

i completeley agree with that, and feel the need to cry out "FOUL"

can anyone tell me, if i wanted to do a float rating/course why on gods green earth should someone paying top dollar for a rating get a guy who doesent have squat for time?

[pilotman15]

because all the guys with the time want the money that no company is willing to pay an instructor

[Road Trip]

The answer to why is very simple.

Students won't pay what it would cost to hire someone with the type of time that you deem as reasonable.

I have to roll my eyes everytime someone comes on here and says go get some old bush pilot to show you how to fly floats. I know alot of old bush pilots and they don't want anything to do with showing some 200hr wonder how to fly floats. They don't have the paitence or the interest.

Heck they may have even been instructors at the begining of their careers and they stopped for a reason. . .

[Cat Driver]

I would do sea plane ratings for a flat fee of $700.00 as long as the student did not require any extra flying time.

Maybe if the schools offered that kind of pay they would attract some instructors who have the background and knowledge to do a decent job of training.

[Just another canuck]

I would do sea plane ratings for a flat fee of $700.00 as long as the student did not require any extra flying time.

Maybe if the schools offered that kind of pay they would attract some instructors who have the background and knowledge to do a decent job of training.

They may attract some better instructors, but unlikely... this would be a good job for guys like you Cat or other retired or semi-retired individuals. But like Road Trip said, most float drivers are too busy with their own jobs to get involved in the training process, nor would they want to do it anyway. If you look back on your career Cat, would you have traded any of your summers on floats in the bush for a summer instructing fresh CPL's ...

[Cat Driver]

They may attract some better instructors, but unlikely... this would be a good job for guys like you Cat or other retired or semi-retired individuals. But like Road Trip said, most float drivers are too busy with their own jobs to get involved in the training process,

There must be fifty float plane drivers here on the west coast, if they could pick up $700.00 for a bit of part time teaching there must be a few who would do it.

Anyone??????

[beaverbob]

I'm planning to instruct part time when I quit full time flying. Need to supplement my pension then.
Bob

[cessnafloatflyer]

There must be fifty float plane drivers here on the west coast, if they could pick up $700.00 for a bit of part time teaching there must be a few who would do it.

Anyone??????

I am one and the people who fly for me are ones too!

Minimum 1000hrs. of real world seaplane experience to teach in our seaplane.

CCF

[Cat Driver]

The problem with flight training is people have been programmed to accept the lowest common denominator when it comes to instructional qualifications.

If the training industry were to charge the students a fair price for the flight instructor the students would pay....period.

Specialty training such as sea planes will support a fair pay scale....period.

One hundred dollars an hour for the instructor is the minimum that should be charged.

[Just another canuck]

One hundred dollars an hour for the instructor is the minimum that should be charged.

100 an hour ... how did you pay for your instruction?

[Cat Driver]

100 an hour ... how did you pay for your instruction?

When I did my float plane training in 1954 as I recall the airplane was around ten or twelve dollars an hour and the instructor was paid either two or three dollars an hour.

I was driving a delivery truck at the time and my pay was thirty five dollars a week.

Instructors were paid peanuts back then just like now but that is no reason why the practice should continue.

[Just another canuck]

100 an hour ... how did you pay for your instruction?

When I did my float plane training in 1954 as I recall the airplane was around ten or twelve dollars an hour and the instructor was paid either two or three dollars an hour.

I was driving a delivery truck at the time and my pay was thirty five dollars a week.

Instructors were paid peanuts back then just like now but that is no reason why the practice should continue.

You're absolutely right Cat... the trend should not continue. I had a conversation recently with a new commercial pilot and he was talking about how his recent co-graduates were all fighting to get instructor gigs with their flight school to make 15 grand a year... just terrible.

You're knowledge is quite obviously more extensive than mine but I gotta ask, 3 dollars an hour would have been pretty good dough back in 1954, no?? Not great, sure, but they would have made more than you as a truck driver, which is more than we can say about the driver vs. instructor salary today.

[boozy]

Jesus Cat Driver, float rating in 1954! Goddamn, your an old son of a bitch. Heh heh...maybe I'll listen to you a little more now!!

[. ._]

I think there are instructors now that make $3 an hour- if you count all of the mandatory waiting around at the airport time.

-istp

[nofixedaddress]

My First Float Job in Southern Ontario was at 50 hours on floats and 200 TT. First rating signed off at 56 float hours. 2 Summers of that I've got 200 on floats and now I've moved on to bigger and better things and still doing ratings on the side. Fact is, it is a low time float opportunity for a guy to get some time and move on to something else and maybe go get a 206 job or something up north where apparently the real men go to fly floats. You guys that consistently cut into guys giving float ratings probably couldn't do a 7 hour rating if your life depended on it. Someone with the right head on their shoulders and 50 hours should be able to do a 7 hour rating in their sleep.

The problem isn't the pilots doing the ratings, its that Transport allows a 7 hour seaplane rating and FTU's are only paying rates for 50/100 hour float guys. The Seaplane Rating Guidline from TC, which I would hazard 3/4's of you with a rating didn't even know existed when you did your rating covers a multitude of things that can only be brushed upon in a 7 hour rating. This has been pounded to death on here but thats the problem.

I've done 20 or more ratings all in the 7 hours, if a guy wants more time for insurance reqs than sure I'll show him what I know and we'll have some fun building the time. If a guy wants to do his rating and the whole time he wants to go fly in the bush after, the first thing I tell him is that I think he should go find someone who has worked in the bush and learn the ropes from the guys that are doing it and I have provided info to guys that have gone elsewhere to get the proper training for their career. Its a matter of being honest and upfront with what the individual wants and needs. I've walked away from guys that I don't think are safe in a float plane and want to do stupid **** in their own float plane. I know my limit, I know what a 172 on floats can and can't do and I show the students just that.

Anyways, a 100 hour req for a float instructor in southern ontario is a dream job for a younger guy looking to grab 50 or so hours this summer doing some ratings in a decent plane, close to friends and home while they hold another job. Quit slagging the young guys who are trying to get started in an industry that is so hard to get a start in. You old guys know how hard it is and what fun can be had once you "make it" but your always quick to bring down the young guys looking for a break.

To answer the question asked.....which rarely happens on this forum -

"if i wanted to do a float rating/course why on gods green earth should someone paying top dollar for a rating get a guy who doesent have squat for time?"
- Short answer is that the only guys this kind of company is willing to pay have 50 or 100 hours and due to the location of the plane (GTA) Its the closest and most convenient for a lot of people. As long as the FTU gets the right guy with a good head the plane will stay upright all season, fly when it should and all the students planes/renters will do the same. Everyone goes home happy and at the end of the day enjoys the best type of flying there is.

And for the 500 hour float pilots that are scared to do ratings, that to me says a whole lot about your ability in the first place. 500 for you, 50 for me - makes you 1/10 the man I am in a backwards sort of way For all you serious folks, understand that was a joke.

[trey kule]

its that Transport allows a 7 hour seaplane rating

I see nothing wrong with this. It does not mean that anyone should be turning them loose without supervision, but it does give them a license to learn.

As to the comments about the 500 float pilot...seems like he understands..You might do well to contemplate rather than criticize.

In the world of commercial float flying typically a pilot will go from 7 hrs, plus another few hours of familiariztion flying with the company routes, to freight hauls, to Pax hauls..and will go from the 7 hours to 4 or 5 hundred hours in a few months.

Whether you start with 7 or 50 hours , the learning curve is so rapid that makes little difference.

BUT... what does make a difference is if you get a pilot who has been taught some stupid and dangerouse "fun" things and comes with their 50 hour bush rating and , despite saying they have alot to learn, dont believe it.

The wisdom that comes with a great deal of,not only hour, but varied experience on different type of float planes, in different areas, and in different seasons is invaluable when teaching. The bush courses, in my opinion, just dont cut it.
I absolutely dont believe in pilot ramp rats, but you would be better off dock ratting, or swamping with a good operator in exchange for training....the experience of seeing pilots properly warming up aircraft, taxiing without showing off, and docking, fuel planning etc. invaluable. I have never seen one instructor, not one in over 40 years of flying, who, when they got to the bush actually understood how to plan fuel......banged into their heads all the little acronyms leke extra fuel has no weight......maybe not in a 172 with only two people and no luggage on board, but in a 180 on a hot day.....
Its experience you simply cant buy in a school or from an instructor who has never been there.

[Cat Driver]

I keep telling myself to stay out of these discussions, but it seems I just can't do it so I would like to comment on this posters slant on flight training.

My First Float Job in Southern Ontario was at 50 hours on floats and 200 TT. First rating signed off at 56 float hours. 2 Summers of that I've got 200 on floats and now I've moved on to bigger and better things and still doing ratings on the side. Fact is, it is a low time float opportunity for a guy to get some time and move on to something else and maybe go get a 206 job or something up north

You are a typical example of the majority of sea plane instructors in Canada. Of course it is perfectly legal and no one can blame you for taking advantage of a system that allows new float plane pilots to teach others skills they are learning on the students dime, to give them the experience to work for pay once they have enough time to get their first float plane job.

where apparently the real men go to fly floats.

I am not quite sure what exactly you mean by this comment except that maybe at this point in time you are still not quite mature enough as a float plane pilot to consider yourself a " real man " yet and need some more time to reach that goal.

You guys that consistently cut into guys giving float ratings probably couldn't do a 7 hour rating if your life depended on it.

Really?

That is not exactly the way to make friends among the group that might be able to give you some advice when you need it.

Someone with the right head on their shoulders and 50 hours should be able to do a 7 hour rating in their sleep.

I have seen their product and observing their lack of real knowledge about how to operate a float plane it is apparent their instructor was asleep.

The problem isn't the pilots doing the ratings, its that Transport allows a 7 hour seaplane rating and FTU's are only paying rates for 50/100 hour float guys. The Seaplane Rating Guidline from TC, which I would hazard 3/4's of you with a rating didn't even know existed when you did your rating covers a multitude of things that can only be brushed upon in a 7 hour rating. This has been pounded to death on here but thats the problem.

I agree with this to a point, but knowing the guidelines really is not of much help if you are just learning the subject you are teaching......

I've done 20 or more ratings all in the 7 hours, if a guy wants more time for insurance reqs than sure I'll show him what I know and we'll have some fun building the time.

You and I are vastly different in this regard because I do not consider it to be fun, and that is why I charge a rate that reflects the fact that teaching is work, not fun.

If a guy wants to do his rating and the whole time he wants to go fly in the bush after, the first thing I tell him is that I think he should go find someone who has worked in the bush and learn the ropes from the guys that are doing it and I have provided info to guys that have gone elsewhere to get the proper training for their career. Its a matter of being honest and upfront with what the individual wants and needs. I've walked away from guys that I don't think are safe in a float plane and want to do stupid **** in their own float plane. I know my limit, I know what a 172 on floats can and can't do and I show the students just that.

I will give you credit for knowing your limitations and I mean that as a compliment.

Anyways, a 100 hour req for a float instructor in southern ontario is a dream job for a younger guy looking to grab 50 or so hours this summer doing some ratings in a decent plane, close to friends and home while they hold another job. Quit slagging the young guys who are trying to get started in an industry that is so hard to get a start in. You old guys know how hard it is and what fun can be had once you "make it" but your always quick to bring down the young guys looking for a break.

I am not slagging the young guys, I am pointing out that sea plane instruction or for that matter any type of flying instruction would produce a better product if those teaching same were required to have far higher qualifications than a new license and no experience.

[trey kule]

I have seen their product and observing their lack of real knowledge about how to operate a float plane it is apparent their instructor was asleep.

lol.//one of the best I have seen lately.

I am not slagging young guys "just trying to get ahead...but for those who have this, as their main focus, building hours rather than teaching, I put your motivation with the group who buy's PPC's or will whore themselves out to a company that has some very unsound operational practices. You are part of the problem. And when the inevitable happens, as it does from time to time, I dont have any empathy for this type of rationale..let me say it agin...you are part of the problem.

Instructing, as Cat pointed out, is a job, and should be taken as your primary job. Building hours to "move on" should be a beneficial consequence.

Unfortuantely, I doubt we can ever see effective regulation or oversight to get rid of these types. Pretty hard for experienced pilots to compete with those that will work for almost nothing.

[nofixedaddress]

I don't want to put this to bed, cause I love a good debate, but I agree with you guys. I don't agree that I am a whore and compare me to buying a PPC, cause thats a little harsh. The first words out of my mouth when someone mentions buying a PPC is "F*** That." If you read some past posts, I enjoy instructing and think I do well at it. I've had lots of positive feedback from students and aircraft owners. I was doing it to get the hours but had my own intentions at hand as well as ensuring I had the students best interests at hand as well. This is what I mean by having an instructor with the right head on their shoulders. The wrong person would be a milker and only be looking out for numero uno. And I've milked a lot of cows in my day, so I know a thing or two about milking.

Cat I agree with you the whole way through, you've commented positivly on my outlook on float training in the past, maybe this post came across diferently in some respects. But consistently seeing low time float instructors getting slagged bugs me. My comment about "where the real men go to fly" is a remark regarding the mentality in the float world. We need 100 hours to get on a plane in the north or 200 depending who you ask. But its stupid to do a 50 hour course and buy the hours, but its also not acceptable to work a dock for 2 years trying to earn the right to fly revenue legs.

All these different opinions about how to make it out there in the bush world and here is an opportunity for a young keen guy who has a good head to get started. Young pilots have to work with what they are given, we are only products of the system that has been created for us. I have to play the game just like the next guy, I may be better or worse at it than someone else but I can only work with the standard that the guy set infront of me. This isn't a problem with the new generation coming through, its a problem that was created 10 years or more ago by a generation that set a really bad standard and let operators get away with it, and now we have to deal with it. So than stop the problem you say and don't take jobs like this, thats easy for someone to say who isn't in our position. We want or career to progress faster than a snails pace and banding 1000 new cpl's together to form a union sure ain't going to happen nation wide.

So how can you tell a guy he's not qualified to do a job the government says he can legally do. Knowing your limitations seperates the guys who can do it and the guys who shouldn't. Ya some guys slip through the crack and do the ratings improperly and shouldn't be doing them but that happens everywhere in any industry, its inevitable.

All I'm saying is ease up on the guys trying to get started, they have to deal with what they've been given, we didn't make the rules we just play by them. A 7 hour rating isn't meant to make you the super bush pilot that can haul 3 canoes on one strut, a fridge on the other with a load of beer and americans in the back. It is simply meant to teach you how to put a plane on the water and get it off again without killing yourself or your mother in the back seat. If you want to fly the bush your going to learn in the bush. You guys have this opinion that the world can be tought in 7 hours. It can't and any float instructor that thinks he can is a moron.

Who wants to pick apart this one? I love beating a dead horse so let it fly.

[yzfer]

So after reading this discussion, if one wanted to get their float rating on the coast this spring, where and with who should I do it?

[iflyforpie]

I'd do it with . if he was offering one.

[Just another canuck]

I'd do it with . if he was offering one.

Same... hey ., is it official, are you back in the game? And can the pilots use your plane?

[Cat Driver]

Good reply nofixedaddress.

Young pilots have to work with what they are given, we are only products of the system that has been created for us.

And therein lies the problem.

What your generation has to do is identify who is responsible for this situation and make changes. By the way it was far more than ten years ago when the system started to get dumbed down it was well under way over twenty five years ago.

So after reading this discussion, if one wanted to get their float rating on the coast this spring, where and with who should I do it?

That is simple, find the most experienced teacher and check on their background and learn there....there are three in this area that I know of.

[206bushboy]

As to the comments about the 500 float pilot...seems like he understands..You might do well to contemplate rather than criticize.

Thanks TK

i think NFA that here on avcanada you need to be humble to be taken seriously, but as to your comment about me been 1/10th of your abilites i got to take offense...
all i was saying that with 500 hours you yourself are still learning to some degree, and dont have all the answers but you have a pretty good idea as what to do. dont stand there and say that with 50 hours you considdered yourself a float master because that is a load of balonie, you know it, i know it, so dont talk down to me..

and FYI i could do alot better float rating than some 50 hour punk im sure, but if i came on blowing sunshine up my own but, id look like a punk myself am i right?

sorry to you other guys, but i couldnt take that sitting down..

Thanks once agian TK you got what i meant

[Cat Driver]

Same... hey ., is it official, are you back in the game? And can the pilots use your plane?

No, after further consideration I decided that my relationship with Transport Canada in this region prevents me from even thinking about it.

The pricks who run this region would make life unbearable for me and my students so it is not worth even considering.

However we put the Husky on the Amphibs on Sunday so in a couple of weeks it will be back in the air.

I may do some Amphib training on that, it is a bit expensive to operate so it will cost around $250 to $ 275.00 per hour...but we can also make it a sort of mini vacation as you can stay at my place out on the west coast and when we are not flying there is the sail boat and the Zodiac to play with and tee pee creeping after dark.