Flying over gross?

[Westward_Bound]

I'm still waiting for my first job, but as I do my research on potential employers, I hear so much about pilots being forced(directly or indirectly) to fly in dangerous situations. Seems that at least for the low time guy looking for his first job(or 2), the likelihood of coming up against these situations is very high. If the industry isn't going to change and help prevent this, then maybe there needs to be some sort of coarse available to teach the young guy how to fly overweight and out of balance. Yes I know that kind of comes with experience, but I know I don't want to risk my life to learn it. I know running such a coarse legally is probably not going to happen, but maybe the experienced guys here can make up a thread that will contain some tips and thoughts on "operational flying". You know, maybe what to expect with flight controls in far aft/fore c of g. What might happen if a gust of cross wind came 50ft from threshold when you're still aft/fore of limits. Just how much extra distance is needed for being 100lbs over....etc.

I was looking at the Ft. Mac company site, getting slightly excited about the potential job, then came on here to search and was quickly put back into my demoralized state. But maybe if I had some sort of "operational flying" cheat sheet, I might feel a little more confident applying.

Anyways, just a though.

[snoopy]

You're kidding right???!!!

"If the industry isn't going to change and help prevent this, then maybe there needs to be some sort of coarse available to teach the young guy how to fly overweight and out of balance. Yes I know that kind of comes with experience, but I know I don't want to risk my life to learn it. I know running such a coarse legally is probably not going to happen, but maybe the experienced guys here can make up a thread that will contain some tips and thoughts on "operational flying". You know, maybe what to expect with flight controls in far aft/fore c of g. What might happen if a gust of cross wind came 50ft from threshold when you're still aft/fore of limits. Just how much extra distance is needed for being 100lbs over....etc."

And this coming from a 100 hour wonder. Ya think maybe you should just learn to do the job right in the first place and fly within the operating envelope for your aircraft? Good grief. If the manufacturer intended to take the responsibility and liability for operations over gross and outside the c of g envelope for the aircraft, don't you think they would have endorsed it in the aircraft flight manual? If you choose to operate outside the limit YOU assume liability for the flight. Do you have a god complex?

How about taking a bit of responsibility for the lives of the people on board your aircraft. I'm willing to bet that given the choice, your future passengers and their loved ones would prefer not to have you playing russian roulette with their lives as you play test pilot in an aircraft you rendered unairworthy.

[Widow]

Thanks for saying that so well Snoopy. Pilots sometimes seem to forget that they have the RIGHT to refuse dangerous work - which includes flying over gross and outside the C of G.

[Westward_Bound]

Man comprehension seems to be such a poor quality of people on this board!!

If you read my post properly, you would have understood that what I was saying is that YES, I DON'T want to fly out of limits!!! But at the same time I want to have a flying job. What I was also saying, is that from reading this forum(and talking to other people in real life), it sounds like any low time guy with his first job is going to be forced to fly out of limits(Taken directly from this thread and others!!!). So if that being the case, maybe then my idea would help those low time guys stay safer.

If things are the way they are, then lets try to make the best of it. If the industry isn't going to change, then lets make sure we're as informed and trained as we can for real world flying as the industry is today. In other words, if being forced to fly out of limits is the norm, instead of just complaining about it, lets teach the new guys some skills to help them cope with the situation they'll find themselves in.

Come on people, lets learn to fully read posts and comprehend what the message is!

[Widow]

Sorry Westward Bound, I cannot condone the idea that "since everyone is doing it, we should live with it and teach how best to break the rules".

A better idea would be to make sure that new CPL's know what the rules are, especially with respect to Occupational Health and Safety, and know what the consequences of breaking the rules may be (don't ever forget Keystone).

[Westward_Bound]

Sorry Westward Bound, I cannot condone the idea that "since everyone is doing it, we should live with it and teach how best to break the rules".

A better idea would be to make sure that new CPL's know what the rules are, especially with respect to Occupational Health and Safety, and know what the consequences of breaking the rules may be (don't ever forget Keystone).

I hear ya, and anyone who has their CPL better know what the limits are and to never exceed them. I know I don't ever want to fly out of them. But I do NEED a job.

So what am I supposed to do if my boss says, "Fly it like it is or I'll get someone else to fill your position"? What am I supposed to do? After slaving away and making huge sacrifices for that first job, am I supposed to just give it up cus there is another guy who will fly it out of limits and my boss wont hesitate to replace me? If I were to act that way, I'm sure I'd be forced out of the industry in short order. So what are my options? Seems that the way it works is that I'll fly that plane loaded as is, and then learn how it flys out of limits with people on board? I'm sure if the passengers are going to be flown out of limits anyways(remember there is always someone willing to take my spot and fly them anyways), that they would like to know that their pilot has some idea what flying out of limits is like?

I'm not condoning the practice either, hey, I don't even have my first job yet! I'm just going by what %90 of pilots(on here and in real life) tell me, and that is the reality of flying, is that you will be forced to fly out of limits. So if that's the case, a little helpful info would only make things safer.

All I know is that if things are a certain way, and I'm unfortunately unable to change it by myself, then to make things AS SAFE A POSSIBLE, I should be given some tips and help on how to fly in the given situation.

You must admit, that if a pilot is going to fly out of limits, for whatever reason, that if he had a little bit of "training" to do so, only makes the situation a little safer. Obviously in an ideal world, out of limits flying doesn't exist, but as far as I can tell, we don't seem to live in that world. But I'm all for trying to create it, but in reality, I need a job.

[TopperHarley]

I hear ya, and anyone who has their CPL better know what the limits are and to never exceed them. I know I don't ever want to fly out of them. But I do NEED a job.

Trust me, NO job is worth risking innocent lives over. If you want to risk your own life, go ahead and be stupid. But if you want to do it with pax onboard, then you have no business being a CPL. You don't NEED a job that bad. You just really really want a job and seem to think you have to prostitute yourself to get that first job. But you dont.

So what am I supposed to do if my boss says, "Fly it like it is or I'll get someone else to fill your position"? What am I supposed to do? After slaving away and making huge sacrifices for that first job, am I supposed to just give it up cus there is another guy who will fly it out of limits and my boss wont hesitate to replace me? If I were to act that way, I'm sure I'd be forced out of the industry in short order.

You can always refuse and walk away. If your boss threatens to fire you, let him/her do that. You shouldn't want to work for someone that pushes you to do unsafe things.

If there's companies that people are saying a lot of shady things about, then simply DONT APPLY there. Apply only to places where you will feel comfortable and where you know you wont be pushed or bullied around. Theres a lot of companies out there which will hire a low time pilot and wont bully you around. Dont waste your time on the shitty ones.

Id much rather work the ramp/cargo dept for a good reputable company than have a flying job
at a shitty company.

[Widow]

Thanks C-HRIS for answering Westward_Bound's post ... I was on the edge of tears thinking we may next hear from him/her as the first to arrive at the scene of an accident.

Please, please Westward_Bound ... choose to be safe.

[TopperHarley]

You must admit, that if a pilot is going to fly out of limits, for whatever reason, that if he had a little bit of "training" to do so, only makes the situation a little safer. Obviously in an ideal world, out of limits flying doesn't exist, but as far as I can tell, we don't seem to live in that world. But I'm all for trying to create it, but in reality, I need a job.

Thats like saying...

If a person is going to only smoke a little crack, if they had a little "training" to do so, it might make the situation a little safer.

Again, you think your desparation for a job gives you the right to contravene the rules. It doesnt though. You dont have to prostitute yourself or risk innocent lives like this for a job, even in todays market.

[Westward_Bound]

Thats like saying...

If a person is going to only smoke a little crack, if they had a little "training" to do so, it might make the situation a little safer.

That is true tho, it would be safer. HIV needle education was one and another was getting the addicts to know the difference between good dope and bad dope. Look at the east side, when the addicts didn't know about the bad dope(heroin in the late 90's) going around, the OD rate was HUGE. But as soon as the info and "training" was administered, the OD rate dropped(due to education). Point is, it resulted in safer drug addicts. Same thing as saying "if you're going to speed, a little highspeed training might help".....anyways, point is, helpful information is only helpful.

I fully understand what you guys are saying about refusing work, and I'd love to be able to work for an operator who will never put me in that position. But in today's economy and my personal situation, there's no way in hell I can be that picky with my job. I AM FORCED TO TAKE whatever I can get. That's the sad reality of the industry today for the low timer. I can go into details as to why I can't wait years for the perfect operator to take me on, but I'm sure you're all smart enough to come up with some reasons that would make being so picky impossible.

If I don't get a flying job soon, I'm probably going to end up down on the east side smoking that crack, because my situation is getting desperate! If you know anyone who will take a 300hr guy right now, and allow me some time to care for my sick family in Vancouver, by all means, share the wealth!!

[Pratt X 3]

I fully understand what you guys are saying about refusing work, and I'd love to be able to work for an operator who will never put me in that position. But in today's economy and my personal situation, there's no way in hell I can be that picky with my job. I AM FORCED TO TAKE whatever I can get. That's the sad reality of the industry today for the low timer. I can go into details as to why I can't wait years for the perfect operator to take me on, but I'm sure you're all smart enough to come up with some reasons that would make being so picky impossible.

Ladies and gentlemen, my third pick for the Canadian Aviation Dick Move award for 2009. Westward_Bound!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16Sq2qhX ... PL&index=5

ref: my earlier post about the Confed pilot escapade. Just seeing how many threads I can stir up sh*t.

[Westward_Bound]

I fully understand what you guys are saying about refusing work, and I'd love to be able to work for an operator who will never put me in that position. But in today's economy and my personal situation, there's no way in hell I can be that picky with my job. I AM FORCED TO TAKE whatever I can get. That's the sad reality of the industry today for the low timer. I can go into details as to why I can't wait years for the perfect operator to take me on, but I'm sure you're all smart enough to come up with some reasons that would make being so picky impossible.

Ladies and gentlemen, my third pick for the Canadian Aviation Dick Move award for 2009. Westward_Bound!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16Sq2qhX ... PL&index=5

ref: my earlier post about the Confed pilot escapade. Just seeing how many threads I can stir up sh*t.

I don't understand?? How am I being a dick?? Why am I singled out when I'm pretty much just quoting what others on this forum are saying as well???

BTW, I love Daryn Jones....I miss the Buzz!

[snoopy]

Westward_Bound,

If you're so desperate for a job that you'll break whatever laws you have to in order to get it, and will do anything you're asked by an operator, regardless of the fact you would be risking other people's lives without their permission, stop and think for a moment. Think about the economy, the rate cutting, the lack of regulatory oversight and protection for people employed in the aviation industry. Now think about what that operator is willing to do, or not do, in order just to survive in a cut throat industry.

Maybe, just maybe, he or she is taking even further risks with your life, without your permission or knowledge. Mistakes, that combined with you operating outside the operating limits of the aircraft, could cost you your own life.

Trust me when I say I have a passion to fly, and I love aviation - despite all the flaws in the industry. I've been in this business a lot longer than you and have acquired some pretty good experience and qualifications. However when times get tough, or you stand on the side of right, it ain't no frigging picnic for anyone. Nearly everyone in this business has suffered hardship, unemployment and extreme poverty.

I can tell you that nobody that I would care to work for would deliberately risk, or ask me to risk the lives of myself and/or my passengers, without our knowledge or permission. Chances are pretty good that if they wouldn't do that, they're not very likely to ask me to do it deliberately either.

Only you can decide how you will conduct yourself in your new career, and the type of peer/operator pressure you experience will depend on the circumstances YOU keep yourself in.

Remember, each time you attain a new license or rating, it is a license to learn, not to kill.

[beast]

You DON'T have to have a flying job!

There are always other jobs! Always, even in the depths of a recession! Only YOU can force yourself to do anything

And that, is the reason this industry is screwed up - lets be fair, though, it isn't just this industry - lots of others have problems like this too

but those professionals have forced membership in colleges and associations, which control the actions of their members for the greater good yes, thats right...i'm a communist, you guys know it

but that kind of control is needed, if standards are to be maintained - it can't be a voluntary organization, or only for some people - it has to be for everyone, and eventually must legally control the licensing mechanism

this does exist in other industries, and is accepted by the public and government - it is soon going to happen in ours!

[Westward_Bound]

Ok, well no one has really said anything new to me here. Seems like you all just want to disagree, just to disagree. I've agreed with everything you all said. I never said that I wanted to risk others, or my own life, and in fact, I said that's exactly what I DON'T want to do.

My whole original point, was that information is power, and in this case, also improves safety. So if for WHATEVER REASON a pilot finds himself in a certain situation, if he had some info from other pilots who had been in his situation before, well then he'd be better off with it than without.

To appease you guys, lets use another hypothetical example. You fly in to pick up a crew of hunters, only to find all of them are suffering life threatening wounds. The only way to save them all, is to take them all at once, but that will put you 150lbs over weight, and slightly aft c/g. Now here is where this "training" would come in handy. Instead of just testing it for yourself, and obviously increasing the probability of failure, it would be nice to have a heads up of how the a/c will perform, and maybe what changes to procedures(takeoff/approach) should be used/considered for the flight. It's about probability.

We don't live in a perfect world, so a little helpful info to use when found in a non perfect situation(for whatever reason!!) can only be helpful. Anyone who disagrees with that is obviously letting their ego get in the way of safety. My whole point was how to improve on safety when found in a undesired situation. Obviously avoiding that undesired situation should be the first coarse of action, but shit happens sometimes. That's all.

[r22captain]

You can always refuse and walk away. If your boss threatens to fire you, let him/her do that. You shouldn't want to work for someone that pushes you to do unsafe things.

Well said...this whole discussion is as easy as that.

I've been out in the gas patch with a jet ranger meeting a 172 at a strip with some gear for a camp. let's just say I took 2 loads to what he brought in 1. The smart-a$$ proceeded to heckle me as I loaded up half the gear he brought. he was also taking the same amount of stuff out. One of the gas plant operators had to hold the tail up so he could get in and start it because that's what his cp told him to do. Does that sound like "overgross safety training" to you?

his take-off was f-ing scary

[r22captain]

So if for WHATEVER REASON a pilot finds himself in a certain situation, if he had some info from other pilots who had been in his situation before, well then he'd be better off with it than without..

Dude..just say no.....

break the cycle..be the man..

then when you're an old grey pilot you can be on here telling young guns to never put yourself in any "situation"

[r22captain]

To appease you guys, lets use another hypothetical example. You fly in to pick up a crew of hunters, only to find all of them are suffering life threatening wounds. The only way to save them all, is to take them all at once, but that will put you 150lbs over weight, and slightly aft c/g. Now here is where this "training" would come in handy. Instead of just testing it for yourself, and obviously increasing the probability of failure, it would be nice to have a heads up of how the a/c will perform, and maybe what changes to procedures(takeoff/approach) should be used/considered for the flight. It's about probability.

wtf man? I work on lots of EMS contracts. We equip the 212 to carry 1 stretcher/2 medics. If there are 12 guys hurt we do 12 trips.

Listen to some of us on here before you go out and kill yourself because someone else on here gave you tips on how to fly out of the envelope.

[Widow]

Westward_Bound, you don't WANT to risk your life, or the lives of others ... BUT you are WILLING to do so in order to further your career.

How is it that you do not understand why others would be EXTREMELY critical of this attitude? YOU are the one who is willing to take the job that someone else has turned down for safety reasons - making it possible for he boss to keep pushing - and threatening.

[Westward_Bound]

Unfortunately the thread was removed before I could respond.

I just wanted to save face, because I think most people saw me talking about unsafe situations and immediately came to the conclusion that I was promoting unsafe flying. In fact my objective was the complete opposite.

All I was suggesting, was that information is power, and that increases safety. In a perfect world, we find ourselves always in perfect situations. In reality, we don't live in a perfect world, and people do find themselves in imperfect situations. All I was suggesting was that information gathered from those that have found themselves in imperfect situations before, could help those that for the first time find themselves in a imperfect situation(again, for whatever reason). That information would undoubtedly improve the probability of this imperfect situation ending safely.

I was in no way saying such information should be used to promote unsafe situations. But somehow, continuing on the theme of this forum, people misunderstood that and started personally attacking me. I thought the theme in aviation is to promote safety(or at least appear to)? By the actions of some here, it would seem stroking ones ego is more important than promoting a good constructive discussion....even if it uses unsafe situations as examples.

But I'll give them all the benefit of doubt and blame it on the inherent difficulties with internet discussions.

[Widow]

Just a note, the original thread was removed to the mod forum to be split in two ... it had gone "off topic", although both topics were important.

[Flaps 1 Billion]

Westword, I don't think we're trying to stoke egos here at all. I can understand what you're saying, how to handle overweight a/c and the like but I think what the real message everyone is trying to drive home is avoiding that first mistake: That being, stay out of these situations by staying away from these sorts of situations, regardless of how bad you think you need a job.

[Westward_Bound]

Westword, I don't think we're trying to stoke egos here at all. I can understand what you're saying, how to handle overweight a/c and the like but I think what the real message everyone is trying to drive home is avoiding that first mistake: That being, stay out of these situations by staying away from these sorts of situations, regardless of how bad you think you need a job.

Well thank you, point taken. I had always agreed (being such an obvious choice), that the best way to deal with that situation is to prevent it from the start. But again, that would be in a perfect world, but we don't live in such.

[r22captain]

But again, that would be in a perfect world, but we don't live in such.

I live in a perfect world I guess.....I make it perfect....I say no when I have to....I carry a bathroom scale in the trunk, make everyone get on, then add the numbers and show them the result.

Laugh all you want. I intend to come home to my family at the end of each tour.

[Westward_Bound]

But again, that would be in a perfect world, but we don't live in such.

I live in a perfect world I guess.....I make it perfect....I say no when I have to....I carry a bathroom scale in the trunk, make everyone get on, then add the numbers and show them the result.

Laugh all you want. I intend to come home to my family at the end of each tour.

Alright cool, hopefully I can do the same thing and never have to lose a job over it.