No more Age 60 forced Retirement at Air Canada ???

[Lost in Saigon]

If I am reading this correctly, it looks like Vilven and Kelly have won their appeal.

JUDGMENT

THIS COURT ORDERS AND ADJUDGES that:

1. Paragraph 15(1)(c) of the Canadian Human Rights Act violates subsection 15(1) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms;

2. The applications for judicial review of Messrs. Vilven and Kelly are allowed. Their human rights complaints are remitted to the same panel of the Tribunal, if available, for the determination of the remaining outstanding issues in accordance with these reasons, on the basis of the existing record;

3. Messrs. Vilven and Kelly are entitled to a single set of costs with respect to their applications for judicial review, including the costs of second counsel, to be calculated at the middle of Column III of the table to Tariff B of the Federal Courts Rules; and

4. The application for judicial review of the Canadian Human Rights Commission is dismissed, without costs.

“Anne Mactavish”
Judge

[ram]

from what I understand...
It sounds like they won the right for Judicial Review...(in other words...they won the right to challenge the age 60 mandatory retirement)...another year or two in court.
Hardly sounds like the "Cease & Decist" action they were looking for.

My take anyway!

[Lost in Saigon]

The way I read it...

Paragraph 15. (1) It is not a discriminatory practice if

(c) an individual’s employment is terminated because that individual has reached the normal age of retirement for employees working in positions similar to the position of that individual;

(basically says it's OK to force a pilot to retire at 60 if it is the "normal retirement age")

...... is no longer a valid exemption. Therefore you can't force an Air Canada pilot to retire at 60.

1. Paragraph 15(1)(c) of the Canadian Human Rights Act violates subsection 15(1) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms;

[ram]

The only thing the Federal court has done is overturned the original CHRT decision...which in-turn brings it back to the CHRT. This does NOT change the current negotiated retirement age of 60...

at least for the time being!

[Old fella]

Who in the @#$! wants to work beyond 60 yrs just for the sake of working rather than having to stay in the work force due lack of retirement pension and/or some divorce action that is setting them back financially.

[ivanhoe]

Who in the @#$! wants to work beyond 60 yrs just for the sake of working rather than having to stay in the work force due lack of retirement pension and/or some divorce action that is setting them back financially.

I do.

[Lost in Saigon]

I love my job and and I just can not imagine the day that somebody tells me I can't fly anymore just because I had a birthday.

[sepia]

If you were allowed to fly until you die, but on your 60th birthday, cycled to the bottom of the seniority list and were doing 10:30min layovers at the Deer Lake roadside motel, hammering back and forth between LGA and YUL 5 times in a blizzard, and getting short called at 5am on reserve would you still stay?

Would you still stay in that scenario Lost in Saigon?

[Lost in Saigon]

Would I stay? Yeah, I probably would.

I used to fly the F-28 all over the place just like that. I enjoyed every minute of it. Some days we would get a busted autopilot. Guess what? I didn't mind. It gave me a reason to handfly all day.

I used to fly wheels, floats, boats, and skis in the bush too. Loved every minute of it.

When I was on reserve, I would put down "Short Call OK" so that I would get called first. I hate sitting around not flying.

Now I have a block and it's nice too. Some times we get a delay or a re-route, or who knows what... But I don't mind. It is all part of the job I love. It makes life interesting.

You on the other hand probably bitch and moan every day you go to work. Guess you are in the wrong job. Sorry about your poor career choice. But please don’t tell me when to stop doing the one thing I love. Let me stop when I am good and ready.

[square]

hehe awesome

[CanadianEh]

Isn't Air Canada pushing for age 65 too? Not just the pilots, the company too?

[Rockie]

Isn't Air Canada pushing for age 65 too? Not just the pilots, the company too?

Age 65 is going to be unwillingly forced on a pilot group too shortsighted to see beyond the seniority number immediately in front of them. I think the company just wishes the issue would go away, but of course it's not going to.

[Old fella]

Well........... I got out after 30+ years in this industry and by doing that made room for some younger/smarter/better looking young bucks/buckets to get themselves established. I did my thing in aviation/good/bad/indifferent and have a pension albiet not a big one but enough to get us by along with the better half's income. I can understand persons having to continue on past retirement age because of income/pension issues - can't blame them as ya got to have $$$$ to live on. But I stand by the position it is selfish to remain in a position beyong full pension and impede the progression of those behind you.

I saw that working with the Regulator, too many old "fellas" hanging around longer than they should have been.

[Rockie]

Selfish it may be Old Fella, but it is also too altruistic to expect people to give up a good job in order to make room for someone else. It just ain't gonna happen for those reasons.

What I didn't say was that as interesting an exercise as the human rights challenge is, it is a side issue compared to the pension. We are headed toward switching to DC, and when that happens you won't find many people on that plan willing to go at 60. Even if we manage to keep DB, working to 65 will be one of the cornerstones of our ability to maintain it.

[tonysoprano]

I'm at 50. I don't know what my feelings are going to be 10 years from now and I can appreciate the fact that some people have already (don't ask me how) made up their minds that at age 60 they want to keep going. I only make plans for a few months down the line, not years. Just give me a choice and don't penalize me. I have no intention of going a day beyond 60 but that doesn't mean I won't change my mind. I love my job but it ain't what defines me. I've always said this appears once again to be a red/blue difference but maybe I shouldn't go there. I can't wait to play more golf and drink more Scotch without having to worry about taking 220 people somewhere once a week. I can't see AC telling us when to retire. You want to keep going, go work somewhere else. At AC we have a tradition hiring our retirees for sim and other duties. Want to keep flying? Go work for Transat. This is all about pleasing the minority. Good old fashioned Canadia(>)n way.

[John Hopkins]

sepia, good posts.

The way that I understand it ( I could be wrong), but for example, if your eligable for your full pension, and you continue to work, are you not essentially working for free? If I am right, would it not be beter to work at Mcdonalds, or any other job, because you would be receiving two pay-checks, your pension plus your new job salary? I could then understand a pilot retiring to collect his pension, then going to work for another airline/operter to gain a double salary.

[mbav8r]

John Hopkins wrote:
The way that I understand it ( I could be wrong), but for example, if your eligable for your full pension, and you continue to work, are you not essentially working for free? If I am right, would it not be beter to work at Mcdonalds, or any other job, because you would be receiving two pay-checks, your pension plus your new job salary? I could then understand a pilot retiring to collect his pension, then going to work for another airline/operter to gain a double salary.
sepia, good posts.

That's the way I always thought about retirment, My dad retired the day he hit 30 years. They tried to convince him to stay on a couple more years, but what he would make over and above his pension, would have been 5 dollars an hour(aprox). In the end he agreed to retire and come back as contract worker which more than doubled his income,but higher tax bracket etc.. now he just works part time to keep busy and somewhat enjoy retirement.

How many of you have seen this study, I dont need much convincing to retire early so naturally i like this study...
Table 1 - Actuarial Study of life span vs. age at retirement.

Age at Retirement Average Age at death

49.9 86

51.2 85.3

52.5 84.6

53.8 83.9

55.1 83.2

56.4 82.5

57.2 81.4

58.3 80

59.2 78.5

60.1 76.8
61.0 74.5

62.1 71.8

63.1 69.3

64.1 67.9

65.2 66.8


Table 1 and the chart indicate that for people retired at the age of 50, their average life span is 86; whereas for people retired at the age of 65, their average life span is only 66.8. An important conclusion from nds. Dr. Ephrem (Siao Chung) Cheng provided the important results in the this study is that for every year one works beyond age 55, one loses 2 years of life span on average.

The Boeing experience is that employees retiring at age of 65 receive pension checks for only 18 months, on average, prior to death. Similarly, the Lockheed experience is that employees retiring at age of 65 receive pension checks for only 17 months, on average, prior to death. Dr. David T. Chai indicated that the Bell Labs experience is similar to those of Boeing and Lockheed based on the casual observation from the Newsletters of Bell Lab retirees. A retiree from Ford Motor told Dr. Paul Tien-Lin Ho that the experience from Ford Motor is also similar to those in Boeing and Lockheed.

[CanadianEh]

John Hopkins wrote:
The way that I understand it ( I could be wrong), but for example, if your eligable for your full pension, and you continue to work, are you not essentially working for free? If I am right, would it not be beter to work at Mcdonalds, or any other job, because you would be receiving two pay-checks, your pension plus your new job salary? I could then understand a pilot retiring to collect his pension, then going to work for another airline/operter to gain a double salary.
sepia, good posts.

That's the way I always thought about retirment, My dad retired the day he hit 30 years. They tried to convince him to stay on a couple more years, but what he would make over and above his pension, would have been 5 dollars an hour(aprox). In the end he agreed to retire and come back as contract worker which more than doubled his income,but higher tax bracket etc.. now he just works part time to keep busy and somewhat enjoy retirement.

How many of you have seen this study, I dont need much convincing to retire early so naturally i like this study...
Table 1 - Actuarial Study of life span vs. age at retirement.

Age at Retirement Average Age at death

49.9 86

51.2 85.3

52.5 84.6

53.8 83.9

55.1 83.2

56.4 82.5

57.2 81.4

58.3 80

59.2 78.5

60.1 76.8
61.0 74.5

62.1 71.8

63.1 69.3

64.1 67.9

65.2 66.8


Table 1 and the chart indicate that for people retired at the age of 50, their average life span is 86; whereas for people retired at the age of 65, their average life span is only 66.8. An important conclusion from nds. Dr. Ephrem (Siao Chung) Cheng provided the important results in the this study is that for every year one works beyond age 55, one loses 2 years of life span on average.

The Boeing experience is that employees retiring at age of 65 receive pension checks for only 18 months, on average, prior to death. Similarly, the Lockheed experience is that employees retiring at age of 65 receive pension checks for only 17 months, on average, prior to death. Dr. David T. Chai indicated that the Bell Labs experience is similar to those of Boeing and Lockheed based on the casual observation from the Newsletters of Bell Lab retirees. A retiree from Ford Motor told Dr. Paul Tien-Lin Ho that the experience from Ford Motor is also similar to those in Boeing and Lockheed.

That's very interesting, thanks for sharing.

[Lost in Saigon]

That's very interesting, thanks for sharing.

That study is not correct. Even the author of the sudy has said it was flawed and no longer supports it. Look it up.

Here is what Boeing says about it: http://www.boeing.com/companyoffices/em ... /Rumor.pdf

The first inaccurate life expectancy chart surfaced in the early 80s, and versions of it have been floating around for years − almost as an “urban myth.” The Internet now spreads the misinformation farther, faster, and in a more professional-appearing form. Boeing and many other companies have tried to dispel the misconception. Unfortunately, the bad news − even though it is fiction − catches people’s attention, while the good news (that Boeing employees generally live longer than the national average), is accurate but often overlooked.

[Letterhead]

Br

[tonysoprano]

...come on, somebody give the guy some hope. he really wants this.

[Old fella]

In my experience and I am around that group(old farts), you will find those who choose to work beyond retirement( outside of financial necessity) consider their jobs their life, their social life and their hobby all in one.

Over and Out!!!!!

[sepia]

sepia, good posts.

The way that I understand it ( I could be wrong), but for example, if your eligable for your full pension, and you continue to work, are you not essentially working for free? If I am right, would it not be beter to work at Mcdonalds, or any other job, because you would be receiving two pay-checks, your pension plus your new job salary? I could then understand a pilot retiring to collect his pension, then going to work for another airline/operter to gain a double salary.

John,

Typically it's for the obscene quality of life that seniority can give you at the lofty upper levels. The split between the lifestyle between the top 15% on any plane, and the bottom 15% is so drastic that they're essentially different jobs. This huge split has been accepted and fought for because everyone knew their day in the sun would come. What this small, but vocal group is trying to do is capture an extra long stay in the sun. In doing so they're keeping others in the shade.

[John Hopkins]

After reading some of the posts here is my summary.
1) In this day and age a pilot must be vigilant, and actively invovled, with the managment of his retirement fund and or pension, starting early in his career. This must be done in order to avoid a situation, were one finds himself, forced, to work longer then desired.

2) Avoiding divorce (possibly by never marrying) will greatly aid in retirement freedom.
3) I can respect a person, who is forced to continue to work, because of a bad finnancial situation.
4) I beleive that trying to hang on to the bitter end, after performing a job for many years and then being given the opportunity to retire with respect, and a full pension. is not the best idea.
5) I think that most people would agree that when you get older you start to get a little slower, flying is not the same as acounting or other profesions, for obvious reasons.
6) Flying can be a rewarding career, and most people are passionate about there job, but there's passion and then there's people like lost in siagon who, well...

[tonysoprano]

......and where would you fuckin' moron's be without us and our routes?

http://www.identityworks.com/reviews/1999/old.gif

We fuckin' morons would have 4billion dollars less debt, better seniority, happier workforce and still have the routes. Now WTF does any of this have to do with age 60? Go drink some koolaid and calm down.