How to start a union
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How to start a union
I work for a company that employs about 75 pilots. I want to start a union. Any ideas? How do I go about it. Which union to pick? Who to contact? What is the process? What should I watch out for? I don't want to hear about the pros and cons of unions, just good advice on getting a union in place.
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Re: How to start a union
Contact a union of your choice and they will give you the poop.
BH
BH
Re: How to start a union
If you really feel that the company needs a union, then contact ALPA.
Make damn sure this is want the employees want, because if not, you may find yourself in a very rough spot.
Make damn sure this is want the employees want, because if not, you may find yourself in a very rough spot.
The feet you step on today might be attached to the ass you're kissing tomorrow.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Chase lifestyle not metal.
Re: How to start a union
First, notify your employer of your intent in writing so they can assist you... to the door.
I worked for a company years ago that tried the same thing. The owners response was that "you can't be a union of nothing" and sold the aircraft and closed the doors. He went to his house in Scottsdale and enjoyed the sun.
If you feel it is required, fill your boots. Just don't expect a positive response.
I worked for a company years ago that tried the same thing. The owners response was that "you can't be a union of nothing" and sold the aircraft and closed the doors. He went to his house in Scottsdale and enjoyed the sun.
If you feel it is required, fill your boots. Just don't expect a positive response.
Re: How to start a union
Find a company that is already got one, like Conair, who uses the Operating Engineers, then if you think that they are well-represented, phone the union's business office and tell them what you want. They have guys who specialize in organizing.
I think it starts with a vote, the majority of the workers have to want a union. This is where you will encounter people who are negative, well, like Yfly, who will blow the whistle on you. You will then get tons of grief from management who will probably try and have you tossed - this is when the union will keep you employed or at least represent you in your wrongful-dismissal suit!
I think it starts with a vote, the majority of the workers have to want a union. This is where you will encounter people who are negative, well, like Yfly, who will blow the whistle on you. You will then get tons of grief from management who will probably try and have you tossed - this is when the union will keep you employed or at least represent you in your wrongful-dismissal suit!
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Re: How to start a union
Firstly xs, I am not a whistle blower, just an individual who has "been there done that" in this case. We did not have a favorable outcome. Poor assumtion on your part.xsbank wrote:Find a company that is already got one, like Conair, who uses the Operating Engineers, then if you think that they are well-represented, phone the union's business office and tell them what you want. They have guys who specialize in organizing.
I think it starts with a vote, the majority of the workers have to want a union. This is where you will encounter people who are negative, well, like Yfly, who will blow the whistle on you. You will then get tons of grief from management who will probably try and have you tossed - this is when the union will keep you employed or at least represent you in your wrongful-dismissal suit!
Secondly, having taken part in two wrongful dismissal suits in my life with the very best of legal representation and being on the winning side on both, it is a lose, lose scenario. People like you think you walk away wealthy. It isn't so. The best you can hope for is a fair settlement and a hush clause.
Don't go into law. You would be very poor counsel.
Re: How to start a union
Some excellent responses, but please lets not get personal. I need information not a locked thread. Thanks.
Re: How to start a union
Part depends on which part of the country you are trying to form the union, but the basics on the process involve signing a bunch of union cards. Now this info is just from school and not the real world, but if I remember correctly you need 50% plus one to take the vote to the company. It is normally sometime before or during the card signing that you get the union involve.
After card signing has been accomplished you are allowed to discuss with other workers the pros and cons of your descision. Now again, foggy memory but I think this can be on company property and I know that you are allowed to post pro-union campaigns in the 'office' but the company cannot post anything against the union, otherwise it can be ruled that they are blocking the union and one automatically forms as per labor code.
The the motion goes to vote amongst the employees. Can't remember the specific combo of the numbers but you need a vote of 50% plus one and there must be at least 20 - 30% (?????) of the workforce present for the vote. I apologize for being fuzzy, but I remember correctly, a company that has a labour force of 100 people can have a union voted in with just 10-15 people voting yes. I think anyway its been a long time and some of these figures could be way off.
Now this was all from a University course in BC, a heaven for unions. Again I should know this definitively, but Union legislation is governed on the Provincial level, just like the labour code. UNfortunately, anything with aviation is government by the federal labour code and the process for starting a union is definitely different, I just can't remember exactly what the process was. Considering this, your best source of information will be from a sympathetic National Union, preferably one that already represents a similar group of people. They will be more than happy to start the process of being able to represent you!
My apologizes again to you and any eagle=eyed poster who discovers something wrong with my info. I USED to be an HR man but like many other fools out there I gave up my respectable paycheck to fly. And about unions, be sure to use caution. They aren't normally the best option. Unions have grown into organizations whose interests lie in being able to represent you, ie. collect your union dues so they can make their pay checks. From what I understand some are really good and other are more corrupt than baseball players accused with a steroid scandal.
good luck
After card signing has been accomplished you are allowed to discuss with other workers the pros and cons of your descision. Now again, foggy memory but I think this can be on company property and I know that you are allowed to post pro-union campaigns in the 'office' but the company cannot post anything against the union, otherwise it can be ruled that they are blocking the union and one automatically forms as per labor code.
The the motion goes to vote amongst the employees. Can't remember the specific combo of the numbers but you need a vote of 50% plus one and there must be at least 20 - 30% (?????) of the workforce present for the vote. I apologize for being fuzzy, but I remember correctly, a company that has a labour force of 100 people can have a union voted in with just 10-15 people voting yes. I think anyway its been a long time and some of these figures could be way off.
Now this was all from a University course in BC, a heaven for unions. Again I should know this definitively, but Union legislation is governed on the Provincial level, just like the labour code. UNfortunately, anything with aviation is government by the federal labour code and the process for starting a union is definitely different, I just can't remember exactly what the process was. Considering this, your best source of information will be from a sympathetic National Union, preferably one that already represents a similar group of people. They will be more than happy to start the process of being able to represent you!
My apologizes again to you and any eagle=eyed poster who discovers something wrong with my info. I USED to be an HR man but like many other fools out there I gave up my respectable paycheck to fly. And about unions, be sure to use caution. They aren't normally the best option. Unions have grown into organizations whose interests lie in being able to represent you, ie. collect your union dues so they can make their pay checks. From what I understand some are really good and other are more corrupt than baseball players accused with a steroid scandal.
good luck
Re: How to start a union
Careful who you trust with this information, you may find yourself without a job before you even call the union of your choice. Companies fire people all the time with no cause and the most you'll get, if you decide to pursue it, might be 1 week pay for every year of service. Something like that anyhow. It's called a secret ballet for a reason. I've seen where someone was trying to organize and talk to other employees about how they felt and one of them or a bunch ran to management and then this guys gone same day. The best advice above, I think would be pick a union, call them and they will guide you through the process. I think they will even contact your fellow employees for you without them knowing who started the process. Goodluck
"Stand-by, I'm inverted"
Re: How to start a union
Unionizer, I'm curious. If your willing, what makes you want to bring in a union?
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Re: How to start a union
Call ACPA - they will help for free I think. If I recall, they helped the Sunwing gang get organized.
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Re: How to start a union
The people of the future came and : THEY TOOK OUR JERBZZ!!!
Re: How to start a union
Sorry if I wronged you Yfly, but on this site the union rhetoric brings out as many anti-union as pro and I assumed you were an anti. This sort of suggested it to me:
"First, notify your employer of your intent in writing so they can assist you... to the door."
I happen to think that in the absense of a national pilot college, similar to the PE designation of professional engineers, that unions are the next best thing. Any group that works to improve wages, working conditions, benefits and protection for pilots has to be better than the free-for-all that exists now. The only part I despise is the company-specific seniority system instead of 'college-wide.'
I have worked for 2 companies that had unions and I benefitted from both of them, monetarily, working conditions and by the prevention of the damage done by 'cronyism' and brown-nosing. "Gee, the new captain on the Flap-shaker 300 jumped ten qualified guys - he is married to the CP's sister. Fancy that."
Both of the companies I worked for had dreadful experiences with their organizing and many of the managers carried a huge grudge against some of the guys, but these guys were passionate about the work they did and they were fed up with the amount of BS that the managers dumped on the workers and they perservered and made careers of their companies.
My advice would be to decide how passionate you are about the job you have and whether you are willing to sacrifice the whole thing by organizing. The laws are specific about union organizing and protection of the workers but the remedies are not always as successful.
For the record, I have not ever been to law school, nor have I ever pretended to be an expert in that area, I have seen the good and the bad of unions, but on balance they are much better than relying on the goodwill of management.
"First, notify your employer of your intent in writing so they can assist you... to the door."
I happen to think that in the absense of a national pilot college, similar to the PE designation of professional engineers, that unions are the next best thing. Any group that works to improve wages, working conditions, benefits and protection for pilots has to be better than the free-for-all that exists now. The only part I despise is the company-specific seniority system instead of 'college-wide.'
I have worked for 2 companies that had unions and I benefitted from both of them, monetarily, working conditions and by the prevention of the damage done by 'cronyism' and brown-nosing. "Gee, the new captain on the Flap-shaker 300 jumped ten qualified guys - he is married to the CP's sister. Fancy that."
Both of the companies I worked for had dreadful experiences with their organizing and many of the managers carried a huge grudge against some of the guys, but these guys were passionate about the work they did and they were fed up with the amount of BS that the managers dumped on the workers and they perservered and made careers of their companies.
My advice would be to decide how passionate you are about the job you have and whether you are willing to sacrifice the whole thing by organizing. The laws are specific about union organizing and protection of the workers but the remedies are not always as successful.
For the record, I have not ever been to law school, nor have I ever pretended to be an expert in that area, I have seen the good and the bad of unions, but on balance they are much better than relying on the goodwill of management.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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Re: How to start a union
Secondly, having taken part in two wrongful dismissal suits in my life with the very best of legal representation and being on the winning side on both, it is a lose, lose scenario. People like you think you walk away wealthy. It isn't so. The best you can hope for is a fair settlement and a hush clause.
Don't go into law. You would be very poor counsel.
Which side of the wrongful dismissal law suits have you been involved in? Has the man kept a brother down twice, Or have you been keeping a brother down?

This is Salacious Slanderous Audacious Malfeasance!
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Re: How to start a union
The pitfall when people "call union" is that they are unhappy with conditions and they have a misconception that a union will fix things overnight. It's a long drawn out process even after you sign your first contract (which could take more than 2 years). It takes several contracts to bring people to a point where they are reasonably content - translates into 10 to 15 years depending on length of collective agreement. For an airline or air service who has a lot of transient pilots it's very difficult. It takes a core of dedicated people to make it work. The reality of unions is that 99.9% of the members do not want to get directly involved - you need very thick skin to organize from the flack that will come from both sides.
The other option is an "in house" association which is still a union and under a collective agreement but somehow is easier for some companies to accept. If you go this route most of your group will expect dues to be less - remember you need capital to operate so you must charge between 1.5% and 1.9% and also you will need an initial donation to launch -- try prying open the wallets -- it's tough.
The other side of the coin is that depending on your situation not all trade unions will "welcome" you in with open arms. It costs to "organize" and if the union bosses can't see that you can carry yourself and will always need to be subsidized they may not want you. The big boys are all about numbers and you might only get the support they think you can shoulder.
I think that being organized is good but unfortunately I see so many guys thinking that a union will instantly make life better - it won't -- it's hard work and the rewards are slow to come but they do come and sometimes you have look at it that you are paving the way for future.
Personally if I were an owner I would want a union -- life is a lot less complicated when there are rules to play by - it's a 2 way street for both sides - the contract also protects the company as well.
Good luck -- PM me if you want more help.
The other option is an "in house" association which is still a union and under a collective agreement but somehow is easier for some companies to accept. If you go this route most of your group will expect dues to be less - remember you need capital to operate so you must charge between 1.5% and 1.9% and also you will need an initial donation to launch -- try prying open the wallets -- it's tough.
The other side of the coin is that depending on your situation not all trade unions will "welcome" you in with open arms. It costs to "organize" and if the union bosses can't see that you can carry yourself and will always need to be subsidized they may not want you. The big boys are all about numbers and you might only get the support they think you can shoulder.
I think that being organized is good but unfortunately I see so many guys thinking that a union will instantly make life better - it won't -- it's hard work and the rewards are slow to come but they do come and sometimes you have look at it that you are paving the way for future.
Personally if I were an owner I would want a union -- life is a lot less complicated when there are rules to play by - it's a 2 way street for both sides - the contract also protects the company as well.
Good luck -- PM me if you want more help.
Black Air has no Lift - Extra Fuel has no Weight
ACTPA
ACTPA

Re: How to start a union
Topspin wrote:Unionizer, I'm curious. If your willing, what makes you want to bring in a union?
I would rather not divulge the particulars of the circumstances which have made me think about this option. It may become obvious which company I am dealing with and thus compromise the whole process. I am only trying to improve the conditions for the pilots. I realize a union is a double edged sword that may do more harm than good. At least that has been my experience at another company that was not aviation related. At least, for now, I have the advantge of working quietly and not rushing into things. I seems this union business is a delicate affair!
I want to thank everybody for keeping this thread on the subject and for not turning it into the shouting match I thought it would become.
Re: How to start a union
Thanks Liquid Charlie for the excellent post. I appreciate your offer for the PM, although for now I want to keep this a public discussion.
I do have one question. What is the difference between an association and a union? What are the implications?
I am almost ready to talk to a union/association but how does one choose which one? And are any discussions that may take place with various unions kept confidential? I am sure they would keep it confidential from the company but would they try any strong arm tactics to influence you to choose their particular union? I am sorry if my questions seem idiotic but I really am not very familiar with the subject. I am trying to read up on unionization at the library, but first hand accounts are invaluable. Thanks.
I do have one question. What is the difference between an association and a union? What are the implications?
I am almost ready to talk to a union/association but how does one choose which one? And are any discussions that may take place with various unions kept confidential? I am sure they would keep it confidential from the company but would they try any strong arm tactics to influence you to choose their particular union? I am sorry if my questions seem idiotic but I really am not very familiar with the subject. I am trying to read up on unionization at the library, but first hand accounts are invaluable. Thanks.
Re: How to start a union
Go to Labourwatch.ca for info on how unions get certified and also how to decertify a union. If you still want one then just pick one, any one and they will start thier strong arm tactics to get enough people signed up so that you won't get to have a vote. Being in the transport industry we fall in to the federal and territories section of the labour code. If they get between 35 and 50% of the entire group of workers who are in the particular unit then they can opt to hold a vote. If only 10 out of 70 people come out to vote and 6 vote yes then all will be unionized, the other 60 people won't have a say in the matter. Chances are that they will be greedy and want to slide the carpet from under every body at once and and go for 51% of the group. If they get 51% of the group signing cards then no vote needs to be held and the union gets in. The CIRB (Canadian Industrial Relations Board) has a web site with links to the canada labour code. Look for section 24 through 40.
Re: How to start a union
I wish you all the luck in the world, but in a country where pilots sign training bonds without a second thought and work for a bag of rice a month you may have a hard time, but you would have my vote a for a union.
Re: How to start a union
You might try reading the West Wind threads from the last six months or so. This might give you an indication of the stamina required by those trying to make some improvement for the pilots, the pros and cons stated by supporters and the naysayers along the way, and all the fallout in between. However, West Wind is now unionized as of April '09.
Re: How to start a union
Thanks for the tip. Some really useful info there.Roper wrote:You might try reading the West Wind threads from the last six months or so. This might give you an indication of the stamina required by those trying to make some improvement for the pilots, the pros and cons stated by supporters and the naysayers along the way, and all the fallout in between. However, West Wind is now unionized as of April '09.
Re: How to start a union
PM me, my dad runs the largest union in BC. He'd be happy to help.
edit: oh hadn't read this whole thread, so I now realize your desire for discretion. But I can assure you my only consideration is giving pilots the powers they need to create the changes they need in the operation, and provide them the compensation they deserve, thats ADEQUATELY CORRECTED FOR INFLATION OVER TIME. Man it pisses me off how wages stay the same for so many years. But yeah, my pops would know how to work your boss, he does it with the Premier all the time. Hope you succeed.
edit: oh hadn't read this whole thread, so I now realize your desire for discretion. But I can assure you my only consideration is giving pilots the powers they need to create the changes they need in the operation, and provide them the compensation they deserve, thats ADEQUATELY CORRECTED FOR INFLATION OVER TIME. Man it pisses me off how wages stay the same for so many years. But yeah, my pops would know how to work your boss, he does it with the Premier all the time. Hope you succeed.
Re: How to start a union
There are some unionized pilots. And they still have gripes. I think it's the nature of the business.
Just saying.
Just saying.
Re: How to start a union
You forgot to add "VOTE NDP!!"square wrote:PM me, my dad runs the largest union in BC. He'd be happy to help.
edit: oh hadn't read this whole thread, so I now realize your desire for discretion. But I can assure you my only consideration is giving pilots the powers they need to create the changes they need in the operation, and provide them the compensation they deserve, thats ADEQUATELY CORRECTED FOR INFLATION OVER TIME. Man it pisses me off how wages stay the same for so many years. But yeah, my pops would know how to work your boss, he does it with the Premier all the time. Hope you succeed.