Mtn checkout to Crawford Bay?

[177jockey]

Hi All,

I'm getting some Mountain Flying experience (with an instructor) in our Cardinal FG. For the checkout, the instructor said to flight plan from Okotoks to Crawford Bay. I've seen some recent postings relating to that loss of a pilot near Crawford Bay. The postings mentioned a couple of routes via 'St. Mary's River' and 'Gray Pass'.

I was originally planning Okotoks over to Elk Valley/Sparwood, Fernie, then across to Cranbrook. There appears to be a pass of some sort west of Cranbrook?

Could someone familiar with the area give me some guidance as to a routing from Okotoks to Crawford Bay? I'm keeping to fairly wide valleys, considering my experience, that provides lots of options for setting down, but things never look as good as they do on paper.

Thanks in Advance!
Corey.

[Cat Driver]

I'm getting some Mountain Flying experience (with an instructor) in our Cardinal FG.

Corey I hope you don't get offended but the person to guide you and advise you should be the instructor.

The advice you may get here could be anywhere from excellent to dangerous, the problem here is it is an anonymous forum so how do you know who is advising you.

With an instructor you at least have some chance they know what they are doing.

[177jockey]

Not offended at all.

That's true. But, one of the things I've always done when going into a new area is to get any local information. Rather have too much information than not enough. And I still have to review a routing with my instructor anyway.

Point taken about anonymous advice, though.

[Colibri]

Hi Corey,

When I fly to Nelson I head west of Cranbrook to St. Mary Lake. It can save you about 45 minutes this way instead of taking the VFR route south and up Kootenay Lake.

If you have the time, definitely stop at Nelson. Great airport that's right in town.

[iflyforpie]

Gray creek pass is one of the most popular ways to go through the Purcells in a light aircraft. The pass itself is quite low and the approach from the east climbing out of Cranbrook is very shallow up St Mary's creek. It spits you out right above Crawford Bay (you follow Gray creek down) and is lined up with the West Arm of Kootenay Lake, which picks up the VFR route again to Nelson (Colibri, agreed, a must stop!), Castlegar et al.

Shorter and faster for sure, but there are some caveats.

First, when you leave a VFR route (and we all do it), you are going away from civilization and help. Not a ton of ground traffic there and as we have seen, aircraft can get eaten for days before discovery and rescue. Pack warm clothes and survival equipment and flight plan your route exactly.

Second, the weather between the two valleys is quite different. Typically the wind is from the southwest and it pushes the moist air over Kootenay Lake up the Purcells where it turns into a cumulus road block or wonderful precipitation. Make sure you give yourself plenty of room to turn around if things don't look great on the other side.

Third, going from the east, you are doing a lee-side crossing. This is the most dangerous type of ridge crossing and the narrow confines of the pass (if weather doesn't allow you to clear it at a higher altitude) means that you are plowing through down-going before you cross and you will have to ride down-going air when you turn around. Give yourself plenty of altitude above the saddle to cross.

Fourth, when you go back, don't climb out of Crawford Bay and head to the pass. You are going to have to do some circling in order to get up and over. I would just head south and hug the windward side of the mountains until I could go up and over the top, cutting the corner of the VFR route at point further down.


Take it with a grain of salt, but I've been through there more times than I can count.


Cheers!

[Mostly Harmless]

I know the area you are going to travel well...

Avoid Highway 3 (Crowsnest Pass) if you can. I used to live there, it is natures answer to a wind tunnel and you will get your ass kicked passing through there almost all of the time. The winds funnel through that area at high speed and produce a lot of turbulence. Take a more northerly route. If you are uncomfortable, use Highway 1 to Banff, then go south along Highway 93 (half-way between Banff and Lake Louise) towards the Fairmount/Radium area, then pick up your original route from there.

Cat's advice is the best though, sit down with the instructor and go over possible routes. If the instructor knows the area and routing he should be able to discuss why you should or should not take certain options.

Crawford Bay is a lot of fun and you will have a good time. If you have time... after Crawford Bay, hop over to Nelson for lunch.

[IntermCFI]

Hi Corey

I am still working on getting you that DVD and when I drop it off I'll show you the route and at the same time brief you as to how to plan it, but if you see somewhere on here posted that you want to see let me know and we can work that in.

P.S I find the Golf Club in Crawford Bay has better food then Nelson, Hippy Capital of Canada, still a great airport though.

Take Care and talk to you soon

Stephen

[Ogee]

If you take what Iflyforpie has to say, I'd say you're going to be a bit further ahead than you are with an instructor from Okotoks. Granted, you can see the mountains from Okotoks, but you definitely aren't in them. It may be that there is a very experienced mountain pilot instructing at Okotoks, who knows, but you may also have someone who read Sparky Imeson three weeks ago.

Beyond what Iflyforpie said, you have to start somewhere. The best place is to understand the difference between a mountain check and a mountain course. A mountain check such as this may be three hours. A course is more like 20 hours. If you didn't train in the mountains, you need a course. A check, I suspect, has more to do with insurance than actually learning much.

As Cat says, it is your instructor that should have certain objectives in mind if he or she is actually going to teach you something. The training isn't all going to be Gray's Pass or landing and taking off at Crawford Bay. With respect, you DO want to go through the hell of Crowsnest Past or Banff past Canmore in high winds. That is one of the most important things you will ever learn in mountain flying, how to deal with mechanical turbulence and the venturi effect.

Try and go at gross weight. Mountain flying is also about aircraft performance. And you're in one of the worst performing aircraft of the four seat class.

You can learn about that going over Grey Creek pass, especially if, as the poster above said, you find yourself on the lee side with a bit of a wind blowing.

Crawford Bay is a grass strip that can be a bit rough and a bit soft at times. Have no idea what it is like now. My lawn needs daily watering these days, so I'd say it probably pretty dry itself. But definitely soft field landing technique. The wind is almost always blowing from the lake onto the land. There are moderetely high trees on the north end, so some people accept the tailwind rather than make that approach. Takeoff is in most situations going to be south over the lake. None of that is Gospel, though, and generally it is a very good idea to land and take off into wind.

The golf course may have good grits, don't know, but I suspect the guy who told you not to eat in Nelson must own the golf course. There are a lot of good restaurants in Nelson. The law has closed down Holy Smoke, though.

You learn mountain flying over a lifetime. A mountain check just gives you a fighting chance to have a lifetime if you didn't learn to fly here.

It might be an idea to ask your instructor if he or she did.

Let us know how it goes.

It might be an idea if you know how to run Google's flight simulator and choodle over all of the route or some of it with that.

Just read your post again. I see its your aircraft, not a rental, i.e. you don't even have to have a mountain check. Which means you can think you've learned everything there is on one flight and can rocket off into the rocks at will in the future. That would be a serious misjudgement.

[Mostly Harmless]

As a baby must first crawl before it can walk and walk before it can run, going into the mountains is an experience built one stage at a time. Your first time out is not the time to get bounced around in serious turbulence. As a matter of taste (with many, many years of mountain flying experience), I prefer to know how to avoid turbulence rather than to experience it and have to deal with it. This idea of “man up” and handle the worst there is has resulted in a lot of death in this industry.

To quote Cicero: rashness is the characteristic of youth, prudence that of mellowed age, and discretion the better part of valor.

The single most important lesson you can learn as a pilot is when to stay on the ground.

I hope your trip was an enjoyable experience.

[Strega]

My guess is the "instructor" is a time builder, and knows SFA about flyingin the rocks...

[shitdisturber]

To quote Cicero: rashness is the characteristic of youth, prudence that of mellowed age, and discretion the better part of valor.

You're quoting Cicero now??? I'm always impressed if you can quote anyone other than Bart Simpson, Peter Griffin, or Bender!

[IntermCFI]

My guess is the "instructor" is a time builder, and knows SFA about flyingin the rocks...

Thanks for the vote of confidence Strega, but I'm not a time builder, I instruct on the side to keep me busy when I'm not flying at my other job, and I have more then a few hours of mountain time.

But if you want to come out and verify my abilities I'll be more then happy to fly with you, just leave the attitude at home.

Stephen

[Shiny Side Up]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Strega, but I'm not a time builder, I instruct on the side to keep me busy when I'm not flying at my other job, and I have more then a few hours of mountain time.

Out of curiosity, what else do you do for a flying job? Since you're apparently the CFI at a location, TC usually only approves a CFI if you're a full time employee of said school, and can adequately fulfil the duties as required, even in an interim basis. Does the school you're the CFI at know you're doing this work in the mountains? Most schools take a dim view of their instructors freelancing on the side.

[IntermCFI]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Strega, but I'm not a time builder, I instruct on the side to keep me busy when I'm not flying at my other job, and I have more then a few hours of mountain time.

Out of curiosity, what else do you do for a flying job? Since you're apparently the CFI at a location, TC usually only approves a CFI if you're a full time employee of said school, and can adequately fulfil the duties as required, even in an interim basis. Does the school you're the CFI at know you're doing this work in the mountains? Most schools take a dim view of their instructors freelancing on the side.

I'm no longer a CFI, haven't been for over 8 months. I started the account in regards to a thread and rarely feel the need to post, hence the 6 posts, so I haven't bothered updating my username.

I posted in reply to my students inquiry. I didn't realise I would have to come on here and defend myself against Strega's uneducated accusations regarding my qualifications to perform mountain training.

Considering the tone this had taken I think I will continue to not contribute and sit at the side lines and let others take the attacks to their credibility.

Stephen

[saratog12]

I wont comment on anything but your route-so heres my two cents.I have flown this more times then i can count so here it goes.For low altitude route try hwy 1 to castle junction remember you are going to get some wind or a lot of wind at hwy 40 to k country then again as you round the corner frome canmore to banff this wind will come out of the spray lakes valley spilling into canmore area on a ne track from 6500 asl to 9500 asl .you can then as you travel down 93 at kootney crossing head west thru the cutout at no less then 8300 it is a descending exit into the valley.in most cases all the crap weather is behind you.if you want a shortcut from banff climb to 9600 or so and go over sunshine mountain fly to end of rock pile on right side then turn west and go thru above mentioned cutout.that should save you ten to fifteen mins dependent on type.follow valley south until kimberly cut over west bound rembering to get altimeter from cranbrook cross over st marys lake-now the choices begin.3 choices that is your first left valley or southern most is not good avoid it.second choice middle road up redding creek looks really inviting -dont be fooled by the logging road on the north side of creek you must climb to at least 10000 to feel any comfort in this crappy windy pass-it is windy and bumpy on the most still perfect best flying day you could ever have but it is nice to look at.third follow st marys river up to the most right but stay in the valley the turn to the right looks right but is not follow to left and as it starts to turn right or more north make the ridge crossing either the left or the right side at 8300 or better and enter the descending valley into crawford bay.Now for the fast way climb to 10500 on about the 206 from tv ndb watch the peaks cause your not quite high enough for the top of the world park-lots of outs along here 11500 east bound will get you home.you should not need o2 in that craft as the crossing from cranbrook should only take about 23 mins but you decide.please get winds at mt allen or nakiska as its called as it will give you some indication of whats going on-nakiska does have a venturi effect and it has some hugw wind speeds that i have found to be very localized in the past-but as you know it cant totally be patterned.thats all I have to say on my first post.be safe.

[Airtids]

Pretty straightforward, especially if the ceiling is good/unlimited. Listen to iflyforpie. Follow the powerline route ONLY (lots of wrecked planes out there that turned up the wrong valley- can be a bit confusing heading west). I can think of at least a half-dozen spots to eat in Nelson that are superior to just about anything you can find in the big city. All Seasons has the best wine list in BC under 100 items, and the food to compliment. Take your clubs for a round at Kokanee Springs (CAR2), and take my advice- splurge on the cart!

Check out my avatar- St. Mary's pass is in the background. I know the area pretty well. Mrs. Airtids and I got married at that aerodrome. Fantastic spot. Have fun.