Insurance on student owned plane used for flight training.

[rengler]

Hi everyone,

I'm a student pilot and I just bought an airplane to finish up my private license. I got insurance through the COPA Silver Wings group plan. The FTU that I am training at has requested that they be listed on the insurance policy. The policy already states that a flight instructor will be covered, but apparently that isn't good enough for the FTU.

I've talked to Marsh on the phone and requested the FTU to be listed on my policy, but they don't seem to be willing to do that. I've sent them an email so that I can get an answer in writing to show the FTU, but I haven't received a response yet. I've also requested a quote from Park but haven't heard back from them yet either.

Just wondering if there are any other student pilot/owners out there, and what you did for insurance. I guess I could go with a freelance instructor, but I'm pretty happy with my current instructor. Any suggests as to what I can do to resolve this problem?

Thanks
Randy

[moocow]

OK let me take a stab at this since I have some understanding of the insurance industry (working as underwriting assistant).

First of all, the FTU is asking to be added as Additional Insured on the liability because the instructor is their employee. By virtue of vicarious liability, the FTU could be sued if an accident happen. In that case, they don't want their own business insurance to respond but yours.

But if Marsh is willing to add your instructor, I don't see why they can't add the FTU. It's basically the same idea. I'm not a Certified Insurance Professional so you better talk to the broker (or COPA in this situation?).

[Hedley]

Why can't your current instructor (that you like) freelance
with you?

It's quite legitimate for an instructor to instruct part of
the time for an FTU, and to freelance for other flights - I've
done it for many years.

Your FTU many not like it, because instead of you paying
(e.g.) $50 per hour for the instructor, and them pocketing
$30/hr and paying the instructor $20/hr, you can just pay
the instructor say $40/hr directly, and you both win. You've
saved yourself $10/hr, doubled your flight instructor's income,
but pissed off the FTU, because they've lost $30/hr which
costs them very little (if anything).

[FlaplessDork]

Why can't your current instructor (that you like) freelance
with you?

Because its a conflict of interest. In a sense you are competing with your employer. It all depends on your employment contract.

One school I worked at an instructor was doing some freelance flight instructing in the mountains. They crashed, and the instructor died. The instructor didn't have any personal insurance so the student sued the school he worked for.

In my experience most insurance companies will add the FTU no additional cost.

[Inverted2]

Im pretty sure the COPA silver wings program is more geared to private owners who are licensed and want some affordable liability coverage. Maybe shop around and see some regular quotes, but they will no doubt cost you a lot more.

PS> Do you have hull coverage as well or just liabilty?

[Connor M]

Yes Instructors in Canada rarely carry liability insurance.

In the states it is part of your benifit package from your FTU. After having an experience with a training related accident I will say I am glad I wasn't freelancing at the time. The money for freelancing is generally better than at the FTU, but protect yourself. For the record I was CFI and one of my Instructors was killed and the student survived.

That student could be the nicest person in the world, but at some point someone will convince them to sue everyone including you and your bussiness. Make sure you are insured at all times and have done your best to limit liability.

One last word for you new instructors. The comment section of the PTR or any paper record is your only defence against any charge of negligent discharge of duties. Make use full comments Good, bad and ways to improve. If possible give the student a copy too. Full and complete documentation is your only defence. If you are not there to have your say make sure your notes will.

Sorry for the rant but it may explain why the FTU has it's requirements.

I have also heard that you may need to go up to the gold level to get your FTU added.

[Brewguy]

Its been years since I looked at it, but I thought the COPA insurance insured the pilot (and whatever aircraft they're flying) rather than the aircraft (with a specific list of pilots)?

The reason I thought that was the case, is that I know a couple of individuals who own multiple aircraft, and have that insurance. Insuring themselves for liability (to fly any of their machines) worked out to be better than insuring each individual aircraft separately. Each a/c had its own hull insurance.

[human garbage]

I would refuse to add the FTU. Are they going to be flying the plane? My policies name pilots only...

I would also check with TC in your region to make sure you will have no problems completing your private on your own plane (with a freelance should you go that route). In the Pacific region it is pretty hard. They seem to have a unofficial policy that ab initio has to be done under the auspices of an FTU. I tried to freelance for a guy with his own a/c and they said no way no how. FTU only for private...Commercial is OK. It seems a local a-hole CFI didn't like people training on their own aircraft (cutting into his profits) and complained until TC here took up that position too.

The info above is a bit dated, circa 2002. I just want to save you potential grief. It sure sucked for my student. Imagine owning a plane and TC says no one can freelance with you. He ended up paying to rent as none of the FTUs wanted to play ball with his aircraft. Super scam on their part, but they wanted his cash.

[Cat Driver]

I would also check with TC in your region to make sure you will have no problems completing your private on your own plane (with a freelance should you go that route). In the Pacific region it is pretty hard. They seem to have a unofficial policy that ab initio has to be done under the auspices of an FTU. I tried to freelance for a guy with his own a/c and they said no way no how. FTU only for private...Commercial is OK. It seems a local a-hole CFI didn't like people training on their own aircraft (cutting into his profits) and complained until TC here took up that position too.

The CAR's clearly state that an owner can learn to fly on his own aircraft, so how do they decide they can't?

[rengler]

Im pretty sure the COPA silver wings program is more geared to private owners who are licensed and want some affordable liability coverage. Maybe shop around and see some regular quotes, but they will no doubt cost you a lot more.

PS> Do you have hull coverage as well or just liabilty?

I don't have hull coverage, just liability. It's looking like I will need a different insurance policy if I want to train at this FTU. I haven't asked if my current instructor would be willing to freelance.

[LOW BURNER]

Did my licence the same way. Used AON as my insurance broker. Made it really simple and it was cheap. Went outside a FTU for my private licence and went to a FTU for my commercial. never had to add the FTU as insured the policy simply stated a qualified instructor for the purpose of instructing the aircraft owner was also insured. Worked great everyone was happy.....but i never bent or started anything on fire so didnt have deal with that crap

[Hedley]

Imagine owning a plane and TC says no one can freelance with you

That's not what the CARs say:

See CAR 406.03(2)(b)(i):

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#406_03

(2) A person who does not hold a flight training unit operator certificate may operate a flight training service if
(b) the trainee is
(i) the owner, or a member of the family of the owner, of the aircraft used for training

This is pretty straightforward.

It's interesting to note that many of these regulations pertaining
to FTUs have absolutely nothing to do with safety, but relate
more to the effectiveness of the lobbying of ATAC, whom are
paid by FTU's to try to change the CARs to economically favour
the FTU's by stamping out freelance flight training.

P.S. Look at the long list of FTU's on ATAC's member list:

http://www.atac.ca/en/atac_members/listpage.html

all of those FTU's are economically impacted by freelance
instruction.

[Shiny Side Up]

Your FTU many not like it, because instead of you paying
(e.g.) $50 per hour for the instructor, and them pocketing
$30/hr and paying the instructor $20/hr, you can just pay
the instructor say $40/hr directly, and you both win. You've
saved yourself $10/hr, doubled your flight instructor's income,
but pissed off the FTU, because they've lost $30/hr which
costs them very little (if anything).

Not quite as simple as that. Unfortunately I'm reminded of how the lawyers and liability work, and a certain incident comes to mind. The FTU has more than just a few bucks at stake - maybe you'll see why some FTUs have such a grievance with freelance instructors.

It all rests on the big IFs that can potentially happen in flight training. Firstly if there is a freelancer out and about, they get barred from my property, unless they're willing to submit to falling under my supervision. Why so draconian you might ask? Very simple. If the student has anything happen to them from walking into a propeller, to slipping and falling off the toilet it places the FTU as liable. With a freelancer on my grounds especially as CFI of the FTU, I become liable for any flight training that occurs on the premises. You can see where a savvy lawyer can take this. In fact a savvy lawyer already has taken it that far which sets a bad precedent for us in the flight training business. I should say that anything that occurs in the flight - if any of the training towards that flight took place on the FTU's premises - then puts that FTU liable, even if they happened to be chatting about the weather as they strolled across the ramp area.

That all being said, I usually have no problem with freelancers who are up front and inform me of their activities. In fact I encourage it if they can offer services in flight training that I can't provide - but its a simple fact of needing to know and a bit of courtesy on their part. Long story short - if you want to freelance out there, and can't get the local FTU's blessing, then at least be courteous and take your freelance action elsewhere. They got a lot more at stake than just a few bucks.

[Hedley]

The sabre rattlling cry of "liability!" is an interesting one.

To protect themselves from being sued, no flight instructor
should ever sign any student off for anything under any
circumstances, because they might end up being sued, even
10 years down the road.

Similarly to AME's. He puts his signature in that logbook, he
can be sued 10, 20 or even 50 years down the road if that
airplane ever has any problems.

So, to keep everybody safe from lawsuits, everybody
should stop doing anything. Aviation should stop. All
flight instructors and mechanics should walk away, that
way they will never ever be sued - they will be "safe".

In mathematics, we refer to the above as the "trivial
solution" - a matrix full of zeroes. Which pretty much
describes aviation in Canada, frankly.

[ScudRunner]

I would also check with TC in your region to make sure you will have no problems completing your private on your own plane (with a freelance should you go that route). In the Pacific region it is pretty hard.

Who's been spouting this garbage to you? I completed the PPL and CPL on a private plane's, all in the Pacific Region. One question what class of Instructor are you using? As long as its above a class 4 (who requires a supervising instructor) your golden, most freelance Instructors I have met are class 1 or 2.

My advice take the Ground school only at a local club, find a freelance instructor who would probably carry their own liability insurance and should be their own company, you pay them directly and ask for receipts its all on the up and up. TC cannot say boo to you as long as your Aircraft has all the docs and maintenance and records up to snuff and you have the correct insurance coverage end of story and your off to play in the sky.

[Shiny Side Up]

Don't be an ass Hedley. You know how that game works as well as I do. Its a simple matter of the fact that as a FTU I'm willing to take on the risk of liability if I'm going to profit from it, but I ain't going to risk my business because a pair of pilots want to save a few bucks - and definitely not going to let one of my employees do it. Its always amazing what people are willing to risk in aviation over a few bucks.

But no, by all means, carry on. The jist of the matter was be courteous and ask before you decide to piss in someone's soup. Not so much to ask in the big world, but maybe it is for some.

[Hedley]

You missed my point entirely.

From a flight instructor's standpoint, the FTU is no magic
bullet, no matter how much various people might want
you to believe it is. It won't help you leap buildings in
a single bound

If you are a flight instructor at an FTU, and something
bad happens, YOU CAN STILL BE SUED. The FTU might
have liability insurance, which I suppose is good for the
FTU, but it doesn't help the flight instructors any.

Re-read the above paragraph.

Now that you realize, as a flight instructor, that you
can be sued, regardless of whether or not the instruction
was in an FTU ....

Why not get your own liability insurance, and freelance?

[Shiny Side Up]

You missed my point entirely.

From a flight instructor's standpoint, the FTU is no magic
bullet, no matter how much various people might want
you to believe it is. It won't help you leap buildings in
a single bound

If you are a flight instructor at an FTU, and something
bad happens, YOU CAN STILL BE SUED. The FTU might
have liability insurance, which I suppose is good for the
FTU, but it doesn't help the flight instructors any.

Re-read the above paragraph.

Didn't need to re-read, I'm well aware of this little bit - more aware than most. What most people who run FTUs don't know - and the point of my previous post is that they can be sued by the actions of a freelancer. In other words, FTUs have a real vested interest in putting an end to any freelancing that might go on on their premises, and especially by their staff.

Note:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#426_21

Now that you realize, as a flight instructor, that you
can be sued, regardless of whether or not the instruction
was in an FTU ....

Also realise, that as an operator of an FTU you can be sued for the moonlighting freelance activities of your instructors. Of special note are the responsiblities of a CFI I linked above, which in particular put that person, not only liable in a legal sense, but also on shaky ground in terms of the CARs if there happens to be one of their instructors doing work on the side, or even a freelancer who operates off their ramp, or occasionally uses your toilet. I have been very pointedly reminded by our friends at TC that its my job to know what they're up to if they're on my turf.

So the point being to any freelancers as well, or students who wish to employ one, to keep the local FTU advised of what you're up to. Keep in mind that you'll probably need their services somewhere along the line - like when it comes time for groundschool or licencing, but then, what do I know.

Why not get your own liability insurance, and freelance?

Good idea. Go find your own ramp to work off of.

[_dwj_]

One point regarding liability insurance: if you are only ever going to be flying one plane, try Park Aviation - I found them much cheaper than Marsh's Silver Wings. They also might be more flexible about adding the FTU to the policy.

[Strega]

Go find your own ramp to work off of.

Does the FTU own the ramp? if not, how can they dictate what happens on said ramp?

[Hedley]

Some FTU's believe they actually own the entire airport,
and have some sort of concession from the government
to be the only source of flight training on the airport, which
is ludicrious.

I find the liability argument that an FTU will be sued if a
freelance instructor uses their toilet, to be suspicious
rhetoric.

Follow the money, I am told. Note the $30/hr loss in
revenue for the FTU when a freelance instructor is paid
$40/hr directly by the student, instead of the student
paying $50/hr to the FTU, and the FTU paying the instructor
$20/hr.

FWIW I have found that many freelance instructors are
highly experienced - often they are class 1 or 2 instructors,
often with thousands of hours of flight time, who choose
not to work for an FTU for $20/hr, oddly enough.

[Brewguy]

...FWIW I have found that many freelance instructors are
highly experienced - often they are class 1 or 2 instructors,
often with thousands of hours of flight time, who choose
not to work for an FTU for $20/hr, oddly enough.

I'd add to that, that many of the 'freelance' types are also semi-retired instructors, who are selective about who they spend their time teaching. Some of the 'freelance' people I know are class 1's who don't do much ab initio training at all. They mostly do tailwheel & float; but will do ab initio for those they want to teach.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I'd add to that, that many of the 'freelance' types are also semi-retired instructors, who are selective about who they spend their time teaching. Some of the 'freelance' people I know are class 1's who don't do much ab initio training at all. They mostly do tailwheel & float; but will do ab initio for those they want to teach.[/quote]

That is exactly the situation that applies to me. I still love instructing but have no interest in the flying school grind where you have to deal with anyone who walks in the door. I will only work with people I like and who are interested in putting in the considerable effort to be a good pilot, not just meet the TC minimum standard. I also will only work at an FTU with the written authorization of he CFI. This doesn't happen very often because I insist on using my own own checklists ,flows and operate the aircraft my way ( i.e. in accordance with general commercial operational practices, not the usual FTU sillyness).

[Hedley]

I will only work with people I like and who are interested in putting in the considerable effort to be a good pilot, not just meet the TC minimum standard

This comes down to motiviation.

We all know why 200hr commercial pilots instruct - they are
building time, and move into the right seat of a beat-up twin
as fast as humanly possible. That's just the way it works, so
there's no use getting cranked up about it.

But why do older pilots instruct part-time? They sure aren't
doing it for more PIC SEL time in their logbook! Is it for the
money? Nope, not that either.

So, why do older pilots instruct part-time? To give back
to aviation.

As an instructor, I'm pretty choosy about whom I instruct.
Students probably don't see this, but every hour that I spend
in a cramped cockpit with you is an hour of my life, gone.
I hope I have spent it well. There is lots of money around,
people, but only so many hours in your life to spend. Your
time is far more precious than any pile of paper currency.

Personally, I am only interested in instructing really promising,
motivated student, whom I know are going to stay in aviation
and contribute. So, it is worthwhile for me to invest my time
in them, because of the dividends for aviation resulting from
their efforts.

This probably doesn't make much sense to the younger people
here, who are convinced of their own immortality and think
that I'm at least borderline senile.

This is really hard to put into words, and almost always sounds
stupid when I try, but aviation is really something special. It
is bigger than any of us individually, and is truly worthwhile. To
try to understand this, go to OSH this summer. By airplane.
And walk around until your feet hurt and you're sunburned.

Then go have a beer at Friar Tucks.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I will only work with people I like and who are interested in putting in the considerable effort to be a good pilot, not just meet the TC minimum standard

This comes down to motiviation.

We all know why 200hr commercial pilots instruct - they are
building time, and move into the right seat of a beat-up twin
as fast as humanly possible. That's just the way it works, so
there's no use getting cranked up about it.
.

True but ultimately it is the instructors choice. You can choose to mark time untill the next job opens up or you can choose to be the best instructor you can be. Being a professional pilot has almost nothing to do with hours or ratings held, it has everything to do with the attitude with which you approach flying.