A few thoughts about our forum...

[KAG]

My Fiancé started reading AvCanada after I introduced it to her. She has made a comment that I have heard a few times –we really are mean to one another. Other peers have made comments about our “low class” and other such negative comments…and it bugs me.
So I have to ask myself, why? Why do we slam each other, cut up each other’s companies, Judge those that have had an incidents/accident when really we should be supportive and try to learn from the event and pass along that gained experience. Why the ignorant comments towards our competitors, and each other?

I don’t think a percentile of the posters on here that fight tooth and nail if they were to meet in a bar, would have anything other then funny stories and share a few bevies.

Hide behind a fake name and an avatar and all civility goes out the window, and I’m just as guilty as the rest.

We want to change this industry, why don’t we start with this forum and take it from there.
We do consider ourselves professionals; why not start by acting like it.


Discuss.

[yvanddivans]

Why the ignorant comments towards our competitors, and each other?

Kind of a tricky question, are we supposed to say something like "the ones insulting others are just plain stupid... whoops I just insulted some people therefore I'm stupid too! What's that black hole... dAaAaamn I created a time paradox" *poppadiboo* (is the sound of the universe crumbling on itself)

I sure don't want to destroy the univers, so I guess I won't anwser that! :)

Hide behind a fake name and an avatar and all civility goes out the window, and I’m just as guilty as the rest.

Well... seems like you already have a big part of the anwser, add maybe a lack of maturity, a too big ego and you gain some problem people. There's also always someone hiding behind the freedom of speach. So this can go on forever... until ... poppadiboo!

[Aviatard]

I've often wondered about this too. A large number of threads degenerate into what really amount to penis size arguments.

I think what you do when nobody is looking says a lot about you and your character, or lack thereof. However, I can remember back when alt.flame was new on Usenet and created for the purpose of bashing. It's never going to change, in my opinion. Seems like, given the chance, people will just behave badly.

I must be getting old and more cynical.

[Lost Lake]

You guys are all a bunch of whinney f%^&king assholes. Grow up jerks. It's the real world and I have an inferior complex which I HAVE to boost by bashing you stupid idiots!!

[wingandaprayer]

All those issues are why I tend to stick to Ladies Night. It's the one forum I've seen on here that stays civil. Any threads that start hitting below the belt are promptly ignored.

[Cat Driver]

All those issues are why I tend to stick to Ladies Night.

I would need a sex change to log in there.

Would committing adultery be considered a sex change?

[mag check]

All those issues are why I tend to stick to Ladies Night.

I would need a sex change to log in there.

Would committing adultery be considered a sex change?

My wife tells me that she would personally perform my sex change if I was to commit adultery, so then I could join that forum too

[MrWings]

I think it's because of the competitive nature of the business. Pilots are all fighting for the next job and so are constantly gauging themselves against others and try to better each other. It goes like this:

Location: FBO

Pilot 1: I have 500 hrs.

Pilot 2: Well, I have 1000 so I am twice as better than you.

Pilot 1: But your hours are from instructing. You aren't really flying. Mine are PIC from hauling skydivers. I'm all by myself making the decisions. That's what counts.

Pilot 3: Shut up you two. I have 1500 hrs. I'll be at the airlines before both of you.

Pilot 4: No you won't. I have 1500 hrs as well but I worked on the dock for two seasons. That builds character so I paid my dues.

Pilot 3: But you worked for Bushcrash Air. They are a horrible company that makes pilots do dangerous things. No one respects them so they won't respect you. My 1500 hrs are more valuable than yours.

Pilot 4: Dude, I flew floats. And tailtraggers. That is real flying. I am a real pilot.

Pilot 3: I have turbine time. That is what the airlines want.

Pilot 4: Ya, SIC time. Big deal.

Pilot 5: *whistling* Hi guys! Just graduated from flight College with 250 hrs and landed a job with Jazz. Ain't this a great industry?

Pilots 1-4: **** off!

[shinysideup]

Good one, mr wings, I think that's why we read these threads. Entertainment!!!

[Hedley]

Too funny!

Reminds me of the old joke: a C150 calls up center
for a groundspeed check (in the days before GPS).

"80 knots", Center replies.

To one-up him, a Bonanza asks for his groundspeed.

"150 knots", Center replies. The Bonanza pilot feels
proud - he's going almost twice as fast as the little 150.

Just then an airliner asks for a groundspeed check.

"380 knots" Center replies. The airline pilot is smug -
he's king of the hill.

Then an SR-71 comes on, and asks for a groundspeed
check.

"1800 knots", Center replies.

No one else asked for a groundspeed check after that.

[Just another canuck]

Mr. Wings... that.... was.... awesome.

[SkyWolfe]

Maybe people come here after their shitty days at work and feel the need to pick on people then piss off to continue the rest of their day... Because I would say about 50% or more of people here only bitch and whine about their jobs.

Avcanada = Stress Relief...

Personally, I just enjoy the fights, it keeps me amused at my job

Would I like to see things more civil? Well heck ya, that's why I usually only reply to thoughtful or lighthearted threads

Thanks for the thoughts on this KAG.

Cheers,

Wolfie

[just curious]

So I have to ask myself, why? Why do we slam each other, cut up each other’s companies, Judge those that have had an incidents/accident when really we should be supportive and try to learn from the event and pass along that gained experience. Why the ignorant comments towards our competitors, and each other?

I don’t think a percentile of the posters on here that fight tooth and nail if they were to meet in a bar, would have anything other then funny stories and share a few bevies.

We don't have enough posters like Duke Elegant, or 182 driver, and more's the pity. Or people who can lightly zing a competitor they know without an almost immediate spiral dive. But, we have you, anyway.

Kag, I think Mr Wings comes closest in defining it. Some people have a hair-trigger when it comes to particular cities, their old airlines, or simply bitter memories of that kid from MFC who stayed and instructed, and somehow stole their job at: (insert desired airline here). Fair enough, as long as periodically they can give their own heads a shake. There are others who are Original AC, Original Canadian, ex-9A etc, who will never in this lifetime overcome their past. I've reconciled myself to listening to their perceptions that the formation of ACPA, the lawsuits, Picher, purchase of Canadian, the participation Act.... were the worst moment in the trouble history of Big Red. In the end, they may well have been right. There are, however,a few posters out of several thousand that ratchet my blood pressure to red-line every time I see them on-line. They simply can't get on here without flaming some poor innocent. I would, in the past have simply flamed back in most cases. But at some point I was asked to moderate, because, I suppose, my views were often moderate. So I would hold back.

I could, I suppose simply re-join with another alias, and be as much of a pain as some of the worst offenders. My user name is likely one of the worst-kept secrets in my company anyway. (Aside from yours ). But I don't.

So instead, I often find myself losing fifteen or 20 minutes, (when I could be getting the dirt on wing wobble airlines, and the saga of their attempts to operate Turbo Swearigan Mark IV's with no training) wading through threads and warning the obtuse, or removing threads for edit. Knowing full well that the next morning is going to yield the full measure of Nazi/China/ Censorship ripostes.

Several of us have banning powers. Not just to tune someone out for a bit, but to prevent them from posting. When we mods chat amongst ourselves, problematic posters are usually our biggest issue. If a poster is simply spring-loaded to ill thought-out rudeness, and has never pointed out anything of value, then the consensus is that, after a 'warning shot across their bows' the next lamentable step is to block them. Sometimes temporarily, but occasionally there is that one that just doesn't get it. Then it's Slainthe! and out they go.

Until mods get tazers, it's still going to be a slow process.

[Carrier]

Readers who have been around for a few years will know that Avcanada is polite compared with the old Totavia board that its administrators had the good grace to close.

However, KAG and his fiancé have some valid points. Take a good look at www.pprune.org and note its professionalism, high standards of debate, decent spelling and grammar, etc. and compare that with the slagging of so many obviously ill-educated and ill-mannered Avcanadians. PPRuNe has users from around the world but they manage to maintain a good standard. Why is this not possible on Avcanada and Totavia before it?

What impression of Canadian aviation and Canada do readers think the rest of the world receives from Avcanada?

[Lurch]

Readers who have been around for a few years will know that Avcanada is polite compared with the old Totavia board that its administrators had the good grace to close.

However, KAG and his fiancé have some valid points. Take a good look at http://www.pprune.org and note its professionalism, high standards of debate, decent spelling and grammar, etc. and compare that with the slagging of so many obviously ill-educated and ill-mannered Avcanadians. PPRuNe has users from around the world but they manage to maintain a good standard. Why is this not possible on Avcanada and Totavia before it?

What impression of Canadian aviation and Canada do readers think the rest of the world receives from Avcanada?

I think they set a precedence from early on and the trouble makers were never able to get a foot hold.

If the Mods were quick to remove negative posts/threads/users it would go a long way, others would see it's not tolerated and stay in line. Somebody comes on and makes a outrageous comment and nothing happens so everybody else gets the idea this is ok and they continue. It's like having kids, they will always push their boundaries and if you don't snap them back as soon as the cross the line you just reset where the line is.

Now I like most on here love the occasional fight, but I usually avoid getting involved myself or just don't bother replying, and occasionally I get bored and poke the odd user to try and get a rise from them.

I think the odd fight is healthy but those users who do nothing but fight should be quickly removed, we all know who they are.

Lurch

[MichaelP]

I go back to my first days flying at Boundary Bay.

From what I heard as ATC was having a real go at pilots and students I had to believe Canadians hated each other!
CZBB ATC is better these days... but on this forum one person who does have a go at me sometimes in a personal way on this forum was one of those ATC controllers back then.
Even so, I take note of the source and I do not dislike him for it because off forum he is a decent fellow and friendly enough.

Like sitting in one's car and swearing at the idiots on the road we encase ourselves in a web shell and cast dispersions at our fellow aviators that we would not say to their faces.

It should be healthy banter with a bit of humour.

I am often on the Flyer Forum in the UK, and it's a lot more civil on there...
Now my former ATC friend can tell me to p off back there!

[seniorpumpkin]

Lots of good insights so far, and ya, some posters can be way way out of line.
I think it's a function of a lot of us being very passionate about what we do, I'm not sure if passionate is the right word though. Basically to be successful in this profession you have to give your life to aviation. When you do that you tend to feel pretty strongly about the issues surrounding it. That combined with the fact that aviation is how we put food on the table and roofs over our families heads. Oh ya, and the one small detail, some of the topics are life or death, that tends to bring out some strong opinions.
As negative as some topics can be, I still really value other peoples perspectives. It can be a tough pill to swallow, hearing the other side of any given debate, but I like to think it makes us all a little better informed and perhaps a little more aware of other people's perspectives. Not to mention, if you ask me, it makes us better at our jobs.

[Lost Lake]

AvCanada has given me the following:

Great advisors and help in the industry including great employment (Thanks JC)
Entertainment
Food for thought
Insight to the wisdom of some (Thanks Widow and others)
The realization of the petty whinning of those who can't succeed on their own
The realization of the petty whinning of those who bash others in order to to justify their own self worthlessness (Thanks Tuk U)

It could be worse...you could live/work in a country where censorship is the rule, or worse ,a country where alcohol is banned!!

[ahramin]

The whole problem with flying is that people will pay you to do it.

[PanEuropean]

Here is a link to a related thread in which the same topic (civility in the forums) has been previously discussed:

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=55415&p=526288#p526288

Here is a link to a discussion about posting using one's own first name, rather than an alias:

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=55494

Personally, I think that participating with nothing more than an alias (meaning, not even using a first name) is the root cause of lack of civility. If there is no accountability - then, there is no motivation to be accountable for one's words.

Michael

[loopy]

Nice post KAG, and I agree with what you are saying.

Many of us get on here voicing about what we think is right or wrong about some incident, or TC, or some company, the industry, etc. Often we are pounding the drum, in the end , about what it means to be a professional in this biz. Well whatever the biz, professionalism means civility. It means being able to voice your thoughts about how things could be different without resorting to the baseness and lowest common denomenator of slagging someone else . That's just intellectual laziness. If we we can see how things are better, find a way to say it that brings people together towards improving things, not driving them apart and reaching for the closest blunt object to hit something/someone with.

[beaverbob]

One thing that annoys me, is when somebody, usually with limited experience in our industry, posts a question and the next 3 or 4 pages are basically replys from the more experienced of us not actually answering the question, but totally slagging the poster about how stupid the question is, or how everbody knows that. etc. etc.

Nobody wants to read a post from the posters perspective. Remember, there are no stubid questions, only stupid answers.

So if you are going to post an answer, make it truly educational

Bob

[Prairie Chicken]

Good discussion.

First, I agree posting in this virtual medium means a loss of civilitiy. Things are said that you wouldn’t say to someone you are sitting over a beer with, even someone you just met. And things are said which are not ‘PC’. I see benefit in that. It’s ok to call a spade a shovel—I just don’t agree with taking personal shots at others. Like loopy says, lets keep it civil & thereby professional.

Second, I see lots of folks with good comments to share get lost in the dust of some bitter folks who just like to rant. I’m afraid we’ve lost a lot of good commentary because of the bitterness that started this worthwhile thread.

And Beaverbob, I agree 100% with your last post. Let this be a forum that those with less experience can feel free to ask questions—and get intelligent & responsible responses.

[Pitot/SAS/Low/Auto]

Of course, there's also the fact that those who would act immaturely etc tend to have the loudest voices and tend to just increase their output. Those with good things to say usually tend to do so quietly and less frequently. So the idiots stand out more, just like they want to:

"look at me!! I am better than all of you!! I will shout louder than any of you to get my reply heard!!"

And on it goes........

But I guess that is the nature of this type of forum, and maybe we can't really get rid of the idiots, but we can perhaps try to not acknowledge their stuff......

just my 2 cents

[ScudRunner]

I go back to my first days flying at Boundary Bay.

From what I heard as ATC was having a real go at pilots and students I had to believe Canadians hated each other!
CZBB ATC is better these days... but on this forum one person who does have a go at me sometimes in a personal way on this forum was one of those ATC controllers back then.
Even so, I take note of the source and I do not dislike him for it because off forum he is a decent fellow and friendly enough.

Like sitting in one's car and swearing at the idiots on the road we encase ourselves in a web shell and cast dispersions at our fellow aviators that we would not say to their faces.

It should be healthy banter with a bit of humour.

I am often on the Flyer Forum in the UK, and it's a lot more civil on there...
Now my former ATC friend can tell me to p off back there!

Dam Right he is and a hell of an instructor too, most of the time he was keeping the Zoo that was ZBB under control back when one frequency was all you had with 12 in the circuit and 4 inbound over the pumps making ZBB the third busiest Airport behind YYZ and YVR.