TSB: Pilots Need More Training (KFC Incident July '08)

[Widow]

"Pilots Need More Training," says the TSB

(Gatineau, Quebec, September 09, 2009) - Many flight crews do not receive training to deal effectively with bounced landings says the Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB). A bounced landing occurs when an airplane's wheels initially touch down but then lift up again as the plane moves forward on the runway. The TSB says this type of landing can happen to any aircraft carrying passengers or cargo, and that, if crews are not properly trained on how to handle it, there is a risk of an accident.

On July 22, 2008, at Hamilton Airport (A08O0189) a large cargo jet touched down hard and bounced before touching down hard a second time. Immediately after the second touchdown, the pilot decided to perform a go-around. During this manoeuvre, the tail contacted the runway. The aircraft climbed away and returned for a normal landing. There were no injuries and only minor damage to the aircraft.

In its investigation, the TSB found that while the aircraft manufacturer's manual contained guidance on what to do if the plane bounced on landing, the pilots had never practiced this manoeuvre or received training to safely control and land a plane under these circumstances.

"There are risks associated with this type of manoeuvre," said Mark Clitsome, Director of Air Investigations, "and our investigation shows there is an underlying problem that must be addressed before a more serious accident happens."

In light of this problem, the TSB is calling for operators to train crews on this manoeuvre and make it part of their training program.

Without training to improve crew awareness and skills, an unacceptable risk to crews and the travelling public will continue to exist.

That's why the Board is recommending that the Department of Transport require air carriers to incorporate bounced landing recovery techniques in their manuals and during their training activities.

"Pilots rely on training and checklists when problems arise. The best way to ensure the safe outcome of a bounced landing is to make pilots more aware and better prepared," said Mr. Clitsome.

The TSB is an independent agency that investigates marine, pipeline, railway and aviation transportation occurrences. Its sole aim is the advancement of transportation safety. It is not the function of the Board to assign fault or determine civil or criminal liability.

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To arrange a telephone interview call:

Transportation Safety Board of Canada
Media Relations
Telephone: 819-994-8053

The final report A08O0189 is available on the TSB site at http://www.bst-tsb.gc.ca.

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-eng.do?m= ... nid=480369

Link to thread at time of incident

[Chuck Ellsworth]

This should prove to be interesting.

[lost in the north]

ohh great,I can see us now having to get a training program on how to react to bounces......

[Chuck Ellsworth]

ohh great,I can see us now having to get a training program on how to react to bounces......

Remember " When in doubt " ?

[Doc]

I can see it now. Training us to screw up landings, just to un-screw them up. Is that about it? What DO the folks at TSB smoke? And where can I buy some? More training. More exams. That's the ticket!

[Tim]

we actually did this at MFC last year. as you may recall (there were threads about them) we had several prop strikes in the span of a few days. to try to curb this, we started some more specific training on how to recover from a bounce and the numbers dropped dramatically. the way we simulate it is by ballooning (instead of actually trying to bounce a plane) and have the student recover. the student is expected to decide if the landing is salvageable or to overshoot.

[pelmet]

Haven't read the report but I know it was a 727. Have bounced them before. Just held my attitude and came down. Never had a big bounce though. Pulling the control column on a bounce could increase tailstrike probability. Pushing is not a good idea on a bounce either as it could pitch over onto the nose gear(although a push works great in the flare).

Seem to remember something about getting airborne with spoilers still extended on this incident and they were on a short runway, most likely with the end of it looming closer. Instinct may take over and you force it off the ground, maybe their only choice with the performance you would be getting with spoilers extended.

Was told by someone that it is a good idea to make a habit that whenever go-around thrust is called, the captain should move his right hand from the thrust levers(after advancing them) over to where the spoiler handle is located to confirm that it is where it should be.

This could save you on a bounced recovery go-around or a GPWS/TAWS pull-up.

[jetboy1975]

727 landed long on runway 06 (6000ft) and bounced. Opted to go around but crew forgot the spoilers. End of runway came up fast and rotation was steep (premature for speed?)to clear the end. Dragged the tail through the grass for quite a distance. Was ugly to watch but luckily a happy ending.

[HuD 91gt]

Great, more (useless?) excercises to be crammed into a sim session. Perfect.

[goldeneagle]

So, does this mean

a) All pilots need training on bounces
b) 727 pilots need training on bounces
c) KFC crews need training on bounces
d) KFC 727 crews need training on bounces
e) The incident crew needs training on bounces


I'm hanging on the edge of my seat here wondering about this, maybe our resident expert (the op that posted the snippet) can explain this to me. I really need to know how to go change my training program so I can prevent this from every happening.....

Hmm, now the dilemna, should I expend the 'in aircraft' training time teaching folks how to bounce and recover, or, should I spend it teaching them how to not bounce the airplane in the first place .........

I think I need guidance on this one, preferably from the paper pushers that have never flown an airplane in thier life, but a very adept with the cut and paste....

[pika]

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/3811 ... t-nrt.html

11 knot crosswind and KAL is part of the program as well.

[sky's the limit]

God forbid anyone suggest pilots need more training.....

I think it's pretty obvious that we all could use more training in emergency or unusual/abnormal procedures. They messed up the landing, then messed up the recovery, what's to talk about here? Emergencies aren't just checklists run on system failures, there are mishaps like this one in anything that flies, so why not make sure crews are up to speed on the recoveries? For all you guys who give it to Cat Driver or myself about the hands and feet argument, it looks like we might just have a point after all, no? I'm really not supposed to hook my skid under a root, rock, or tree branch when I land the helicopter, but if I do, I damn well better know what to do about it or it'll be upside don faster than you can say it. I owe that to myself and my passengers.

Has everyone forgotten the MD-11 in Japan not so long ago? Couple of families without Dad this Christmas after a messed up landing.

This isn't about ego, it's about being prepared.

stl

[swordfish]

Well actually, BLRs are (were) a standard part of training in Australia. Can't comment on heavy aircraft, but during ab-initio and CPL training, we were taken up in gusty crosswind conditions to practise the inevitable. It was usually an awareness of when one COULD happen, and the signs that you might bounce, be ready for it, and then try to recover with some modicum of grace.

Primary cause: carrying too much power into the landing.

It's a big deal in the mountains, where there's rarely a go-around once you're committed, and you can stall 10' above the ground.

[mcrit]

The whole thing makes me ask WTF? Recovering from a bounce is not an emergency, it's just airmanship. All I can say is that I used to do bounce/balloon recovery training with all of my students and especially with my instructor candidates. I will admit that I used to shake my head when some of the instructor candidates said they had never been given bounce recovery training before.

[angry inch]

I recover from bounces all the time!!

[rsandor]

The day a pilot decides they don't need anymore training or practice is the day they should hang up their wings.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Jesus what a way to start a day, how did aviation get to the place that pilots discuss such basic airmanship as if they are discussing black magic?

[scm]

Many flight crews do not receive training to deal effectively with bounced landings says the Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB).

Can't argue with that. Bounce recovery training can be weak at many flight schools. I see it all the time with Cessnas bouncing down the down-slope runway here - sometimes with multiple chances to overshoot. Move on to different aircraft with different bounce characteristics, add in a bunch of 'factors', and you increase the risk of a stressed frame or bent metal.

Training pilots shouldn't have to make up for the deficiencies in ab-initio instructing, but that's the way it is, and while it isn't possible to in-flight train for bounces in large aircraft, there is always simulator and ground training available.

[HuD 91gt]

God forbid anyone suggest pilots need more training.....

I think it's pretty obvious that we all could use more training in emergency or unusual/abnormal procedures. They messed up the landing, then messed up the recovery, what's to talk about here? Emergencies aren't just checklists run on system failures, there are mishaps like this one in anything that flies, so why not make sure crews are up to speed on the recoveries? For all you guys who give it to Cat Driver or myself about the hands and feet argument, it looks like we might just have a point after all, no? I'm really not supposed to hook my skid under a root, rock, or tree branch when I land the helicopter, but if I do, I damn well better know what to do about it or it'll be upside don faster than you can say it. I owe that to myself and my passengers.

Has everyone forgotten the MD-11 in Japan not so long ago? Couple of families without Dad this Christmas after a messed up landing.

This isn't about ego, it's about being prepared.

stl

I was not trying to say more training is a bad thing. I was trying to state that there are so many scenarios to train for in a companies alotted training time. I know my sim sessions are jam packed, and that extra 5 mins to set you up on final so you can bounce a landing is just not there.

[727driver]

I have yet to meet someone (myself included) who has never bounced one and recovered from time to time in the sim either during initial, recurrent training or even a check ride. If the recovery doesn't go well then sure I see a reason to brief the issue and maybe even practice it to prove proficiency. However I don't see the need to include it in a training matrix. IMHO

[sky's the limit]

I was not trying to say more training is a bad thing. I was trying to state that there are so many scenarios to train for in a companies alotted training time. I know my sim sessions are jam packed, and that extra 5 mins to set you up on final so you can bounce a landing is just not there.

Fair enough.

Time is money, and I know Sim time is a valuable commodity these days.

That said, this is a pretty basic bit of flying that perhaps gets a little overlooked by the time most drivers get to the large jet category. Unfortunately the consequences of bouncing these machines badly can be catastrophic, whereas a turbo-prop or smaller tends to be no big deal unless one is talking about the off-strip applications.

I still maintain flying is not all about procedures, and these types of recoveries should find a place in training once in a while.

stl

[RFN]

I think there's a big difference between bouncing a C172 and bouncing an a/c with Lift Dumping spoilers.

In the RJ, if you leave even a small amound of thrust on when you touch, you can easily bounce, because the lift dumping does not deploy, and you are touching down well above stall speed. If you then, in the air, bring the thrust back to idle, the spoilers will ALL immediately deploy and you will hit VERY hard. If you have bounced with even a trace of power on, you HAVE to go around...period.

While I realize this article was in reference to a B727, bouncing a larger jet aircraft (MD-80 in Japan) is not just a matter of recovering for another nice flare like we were all trained in the beginning.

Bottom line, if it can, or has nearly caused an accident, then why not train it in the SIM? Seems like that's what the SIM is for.

[W5]

Coles' notes and some pics.:

http://avherald.com/h?article=40a23fcb/0009&opt=0

[trey kule]

Doc wrote

And where can I buy some?

ah, Doc, I may know a guy.

Seriously, I having trouble with the thinking. There was an actual procedure for this situation. Seems it was not part of a training program. Seems that is a pretty sensible suggestion.

However, doing bounce training with PPL students (and many commercial ones) might be better left until they can fly well ...FTUs, have, in my opinion, a bit of a history of trying to ignore the basics and teach the exceptions.

[jim_from_texas]

We do bounced landing recovery practice in the sim (MD11). Definitely not a useless exercise, tailstrike very likely if you dont freeze the pitch at 10deg.