breakers/smoke in the cockpit

[northmansx]

does anyone have a trick to pop breakers that are flush if not recessed in it's housing. some breakers stick out nicely with a lip to pull on but the ones in my 182 are flush and i can't pull them out. i tried numerous small objects and was only able to get (2) 5 amp breakers out. i am trying to find the cause of smoke in the cockpit and wanted to pull some breakers. I have the ones that are like the white breaker ,and if anyone has any smart ass coments please don;t respond. thanks

[iflyforpie]

Get a pair of alligator clips and jump the terminal opposite the bus to ground with power on. Don't do it on a 60A unless you have some heavy duty wire (ask me how I know).

[bombardierfixer]

A 182 has a 60A breaker? Is it the only one? If you're carefull a set of those little snap on plyers with the little teeth. It sounds gash but if you're only pulling it once a year it works. I had to do that on JB5 in the CRJ, The ING B was a 20A that you just couldn't get your fingers on enough to pull it.

[northmansx]

the 60 amp breaker is just for reference to show how little meat there is to grab and pull. I actually just looked at it and the alternator is a 60 amp.

the smoke appears to have came out of the defrost vent, it happened twice and i can't see or feel any hot or burnt wires anywhere, kinda thought it may have been coming from the engine compartment but the defrost louver is seized shut and it does stop when the master gets turned off. i am lost for ideas and thought i may just use the breakers to isolate the problem. anyone have any other ideas?

[Sparkfarmer]

Probably the most common cause of "smoke in the Cockpit" problems are blower motors in re-cerc systems or in this case defog. DC motors have brushes. When the brushes wear out, they start arcing. That what causes the smell. Pull the motor and replace it/check the brushes.

Oh, and don't trip CBs by shorting the circuit out. Really dumb idea/suggestion! Just remove the wire from the terminal (with power off of the bus).

[xsbank]

Defroster.... are you sure your heater muffs are in good shape? You're not seeing exhaust?

[northmansx]

it is definatly smoke, it started out as a different smell and then turned into billowing plumes of smoke coming from the defrost vent. it was stopped almost immediatly by shutting the master switch off. All exhaust components are in good shape as far as i can see

[Louis]

How much is a typical certified aviation breaker, and would something prevent an AME from switching those unpullable breakers with compatible ones that are? (I always disliked the unpullable ones.)

[bombardierfixer]

Huh, thats kinda scary. I'm out of my element with the GA stuff, sorry. Pie seems to know that stuff, maybe PM him.

[SeptRepair]

What does the smoke smell like? Is it a burnt electrical smell or is it an oil burning smell. Does the smell happen with the engine running or with only the master on. If its coming out of the defroster or is it coming out of that general area and its fooling you into thinking its coming out of the defrost port. Have you had any recent work under the dash? What does your AME have to say about all this?

[northmansx]

the problem seems to only happen with the engine running, i went out last night and crowled under the dash withthe master on for 1 hour and then ran it for 15 minutes and no smoke to be seen. the smell is definately burnt wiring/insulation smell. I have access to a heat sensitive camera which may show where is it getting hot, i am going to try it on the ground and if i can't see anything i will have to buzz around the lake with someone ready to peer under the dash when it starts to smoke.

in trying to diagnose the problem the other night i went up for a flight to recreate the problem, i flew circuts for 30 minutes before the smoke came, i immediatly landed and checked for hot wires and nothing. but with that being said there has to be 1500 damn wires behind the dash that is not the easiest to get under.

I have had no recent work done to the 182 and my AME gave me a few things to check but nothing turned up. it really sucks that the nearest AME is is a 4 hour flight away.

[xsbank]

I'm not an AME but the only thing that should come out of your defroster is the air that has been through your engine. Therefore, either the smoke is not coming out of the defroster or it is not electrical smoke. I am suspicious that there is no sign of burnt wiring.

What electrical services are you using when you do circuits? Have you tried turning off each switch until the smoke stops?

When does the smoke start? Take-off/go-around or cruise or on approach? What do you do when you see the smoke? Throttle back?

Do you have a vacuum system? Is everything working?

[northmansx]

the last time i flew it took 30 minutes to smoke, and the only things on were the radio and intercom. It is definatly burnt wring smell and i turn off the master and it stops. the vacume system is workin gjust fine. nothing else is happening when the smoke appears, nothing flickers or does anything funny. it's got me puzzled.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I have got to say that repeatedly flying an aircraft with positive evidence of smoke in the cockpit strikes me as very unwise. Just because the smoke went away when the master wsa turned off last time doesn't mean this will happen next time. If a fire catches hold in the cockpit you will be in a desperate situation very quickly. Even being over the airport does not necessarily mean you could land before becoming overwhelmed with smoke or toxic fumes.

[northmansx]

I understand exacally what your saying about the descision i made to fly the plane with evidence of smoke but i must say that i did not fly the airplane repeatedly, i did once while trying to diagnose the cause after repeated attempts were made to duplicate the situatiuon on the ground which proved unsucessful. i take my flying very seriously and i value my aircarft greatly and would in no way risk it for the fun of just flying around. with all that said i value your opinion and comments as i agree it may not be the wisest thing to do.

[Ogee]

I'd like to have heard this live, but never will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uCFs06j7E8

[RVgrin]

I'd like to have heard this live, but never will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uCFs06j7E8

For those who didn't get Ogee's reference, Rogers died in a fire aboard Air Canada Flight 797 at the age of 33.

If you smell smoke in the cockpit land immediately.

Taking off knowing a potential fire is smoldering is irresponsible, illegal, and dumb.

[donk]

sounds like the master itself is getting hot or a relay

[J31]

I would recommend you not to fly this aircraft with a potential fire problem. Run it on the ground for your trouble shooting. As for disabling circuit breakers DO NOT SHORT THEM OUT to trip them nor try to pull it out. Doing so could destroy the breaker or render it unable to function properly.

Electrical smells while running sounds associated with the alternator. It puts out a lot of ampere and turning the battery master off removes that power source.

Has there been any recent work done to the airplane in the last few years? Think about how it could be associated with your problem. Items like an intercom installed, radio change, new alternator, engine change, new ducting installed……

Look for electrical wires that may be rubbing on the ducting or together on or close to the vent hoses under the dash and in the engine bay. Look for plastic snap ties as they are notorious for chaffing on electrical wiring. Check all wiring from the alternator the battery to the circuit breaker panel to the switches.

If you have no luck finding evidence of chaffing then run the engine and trouble shoot only on the ground. BE VERY CAREFUL OF THAT SPINNIG PROP! Does your aircraft have the double Bat/Alt switch which the alternator can be turned off with the battery left on? If so run the aircraft and load up the system by turning on all electrics and moving the electric flaps. If you are able to recreate the smell/smoke turn off the alternator to see if the smoke dissipates. This would point to the alternator and /or associated wiring.

Keep an open mind considering all potential sources of your problem…..it may not be electrical.

Check with Transport Canada’s service difficulty database (SDR) for ideas.

These are just some ideas. How far you go will depend on your experience working on aircraft. Keep in mind do not get into things that are beyond your experience. It may take a good aircraft engineer longer to fix a mess that someone with no idea created than if said engineer did the trouble shooting himself. Can you say $$$$$$$

Best of luck

[RatherBeFlying]

If the smoke stops when the master is switched off and "nothing else" is on, it's time to find out which items are switched on directly by the master:

Turn Coordinator, Hobbs meter, fuel and other gauges for starters.

[northmansx]

thanks for all the tips and advice guys, i have finally found the problem. as it turns out the problem was with the muffler, it was 100% coincidence that it stopped with the master. it would have bet big money on the electrical system. the muffler had a hole in it and was directing all the heat into the 3" scat hose coming into the cabin. it caused a bunch of bad smell as it's rated for that kind of heat. the carbon monoxide detector did not register any co2. my 182 had an annual 22 hours ago and i found out that the muffler had a hole in it big enough for a damn racoon to live in. i can post a picture if anyone wants to see how my muffler looks to pass an inspection.

this just goes to show that as certain as you are that something is the problem it could be something totally different. a lesson learned!!

on a side note what kind of recourse do i have with the mechanic who just called that muffler airworthy? i understand things can be missed but there is no way in hell that that was ever looked at. once again i am looking foe your opinions. i am leaving town for the next 10 days but intend to talk with the AME when i return. thanks guys