Using your own aircraft for flight training

[unluckystuntman]

Hi, another member of my family owns an aircraft and I was hoping to use it to obtain a PPL, does anyone have any info on this

Thanks

[Tim]

here's the CARs for aircraft requirements

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regse ... htm#425_23

you'll need a class 3 instructor or better because, if i remember correctly, 4's cant freelance...but i cant find a reference to back that up

[Hawkeye4077]

Insurance comany don't like to insure student pilots. Make sure you give them a call and see what they think about it. might have to do a bit of shoping.

good luck


Hawk

[pilotman15]

here's the CARs for aircraft requirements

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/regse ... htm#425_23

you'll need a class 3 instructor or better because, if i remember correctly, 4's cant freelance...but i cant find a reference to back that up

One wouldn't necessarily have to find a freelancing instructor to use their own plane. If they went to an FTU and said I have my own plane and I want to learn to fly (and I know of people who have bought a plane before flying a single hour), the FTU could provide the instructor. As long as the class 4 is employed by the FTU and under supervision, I don't see why it matters who owns the plane as long as the student is paying the FTU and not the instructor directly. That's my interpretation of it anyway... correct me if I'm wrong.

[Invertago]

Find a local flying club (the club sort not the business sort) they'll probably know of an instructor who would freelance for you. You'll likely be saving money over the school route and the instructor will earn more. As a plus, you'll likely find an experienced instructor not a newly minted class 4.

[niss]

Ask Niss, he is doing that right now.

Great advice.

I had no problem getting added to my plan as a student. They told me to hurry the hell up though because if I go another season without attaining my PPL they will up my rates....sigh... but to be fair to them it has been 3 years....but this is the year baby!

You do need a class 3 and can go to a flight school but if you find a freelancer you can get it usually for a little less than the FTU and the instructor gets more. BUT SO HELP YOU GOD IF YOU ADVERTISE WHAT YOU WANT TO PAY ON THIS FORUM! Just a word of advice on that one, unless you are offering $300.00/hr you will be crucified on this forum!

It is a great way to go IMO as you get to use the same a/c each time, learn its quirks, and you aren't competing with dozens of other students for the same a/c.

The issue of course is $$, if you get a decent rate on it then you are golden.

Good luck!

[unluckystuntman]

Thanks for the help, gonna give it a shot, its s Stinson 108-2 taildragger so it should be interesting.

[Hedley]

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[niss]

btw, I am sure that many here will disagree, but $50/hr
for an instructor that doesn't wreck your airplane is
probably a better deal than $20/hr for an instructor
that will.

I definitely agree... I just posted that little part because no matter what you are offering, someone here will take offense to it.

[LOW BURNER]

i had no trouble at all. finished last year. insurance, instructors (good class one) not sure how much money i saved but i had the aircraft to use when i wanted. If you need some direction i will do my best to assist.

[Shiny Side Up]

I have seen 'way too many taildraggers wrecked over
the years with supposedly "expert" tailwheel instructor
pilots in them. Please don't go by reputation - get the
instructor evaluated somehow.

Harder than it sounds though. Keeping in mind the fact that competent taildragger instructors are relatively rare, finding two of them - one to do the checking - might be tough. Of course how do you find someone to do the checking? Unfortunately with learning to fly, its considerably more difficult for novices new to it to really determine the skill level of those they're seeking training from. After all, who oversees whom?

Ideally you'd find someone whom you think has enough experience - hours-wise and instructing-wise. And comes by reputation as well. Sucessful previous students would be a good place to start.

[Brewguy]

Ask around at your local soaring club ... many tow pilots (i.e. guys with thousands, and thousands of circuits in taildraggers) also have instructor ratings.

[Randleman]

I bought a plane and began to train on it with 25 hours. I did it with a class 4 with Langley Flying School, and it worked well for me.

To train the plane needs to be registered in yours, or your immediate family's name. Insurance on a 150 with 0 hours cost me 1500 per year (not bad when you consider my car insurance was 3000 per year in my first year). If you want to do freelance you will need a class 3 instructor, but if you go to a local flying school, than you can use any instructor they have there.

Best of luck

[Old Dog Flying]

If you are on the west coast, PM me and I'll give you the name of a very competent taildragger instructor who will freelance.

Barney

[Hedley]

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[Shiny Side Up]

if you go to a local flying school

just as a heads up: some flight schools will do that - use
customer's airplane - but it's actually not quite kosher with
respect to the CARs, because the aircraft are not commercially
registered, maintained according to their MPM by their AMO,
etc which is required for flight school aircraft.

I have to question this one Hedley, do you have a specific reference?

[Hedley]

*** edited ***

[Shiny Side Up]

I can only assume that you're referring to:

406.35 A flight training unit that operates an aeroplane or a helicopter shall establish and comply with a maintenance control system that

(a) consists of policies and procedures regarding the maintenance of aircraft operated by the flight training unit;

Quite simply the FTU does not become the operator in the case of training on a privately owned airplane - the owner of the airplane is still considered the operator.

By your logic then does a freelance instructor become the aircraft's "operator" when conducting training on it?

[Hedley]

*** edited ***

[Shiny Side Up]

Heh. Talk to your local Transport Inspector and see
if you can smoke it past him - good luck!

No need to smoke past something that's legal to do. Lord knows they're hell bent enough on making life difficult. Since we've been over that little bit of the CARs you picked out there over and over again they would have hammered us ages ago on that detail. Maybe the next inspector I go over the MCM with, the PTR system with and every other bit of operational control there is will agree with you, but so far not yet. Cross your fingers, maybe one of them will read what you've put here that and think they have a valid case to come make my life difficult again. When I have the next sit down with inspector number nine (I hear we have yet a new person in the region to visit with) I'll bring it up, just in case by some fluke the other eight have missed out on that little sin. Maybe they'll even invalidate the last 18 licences I've done with people on their own aircraft under the FTU's faulty aegis. Guess I must have "smoked" all those past them. There, even admitted to violating the CARs for ya online, I should get one of those PMs now asking for more info from me from the TC people who haunt this site. Unless of course I didn't.

You don't like FTUs Hedley and a lot of the time I'd agree with you. There are a lot of bad ones out there. Point of the matter is that most FTUs won't have someone qualified to teach on anything but the types of aircraft they have on the line - even if they say they are. Many schools don't do it for insurance reasons, I got a stack of forms for the process.

But then I run an evil FTU, I'm probably just doing things to scam people.

[Hedley]

*** edited ***

[Shiny Side Up]

You don't like FTUs Hedley

Huh? I've been CFI at three different schools over
the decades, and in fact I'm acting CFI of an FTU
right now.

I can only tell you the impression of what I get from what you write. I will say it suprises me that you'd take the post of a CFI at one. It is true though that a position of authority is often best held by those who least desire it.

And, I'm sure if I called up Transport and asked if
one of my class 4 instructors could instruct on a
private aircraft, they'd laugh their *sses off, and
likely drop the phone.

You should ask then. As long as the class 4 has reasonable experience to do so on said aircraft - with your appropriate supervision of course. Lord knows I've asked to make sure my ducks are in a row here. They might always change their mind, but here it stands. Everywhere I've been its been the case as well.

Anyways, I don't hate FTUs - but I do resent the
efforts of FTUs to quash freelance instruction for
obviously financial reasons which have nothing to
do with safety.

Both FTUs and freelancers have their place. I don't
think we should get rid of either one. I do think that
FTUs are tremendously over-regulated - this whole
AMO/MCM/SMS thing is over the top - but that's
neither here nor there.

On that I whole heartedly agree. I know my view of freelancers is colored by the ammount of bad experiences I've had with them, but I could also say I've had as many bad experiences with FTUs. Flight training in Canada needs change and the regulator isn't helping it or guiding it in the right direction.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I should get one of those PMs now asking for more info from me from the TC people who haunt this site.

Have you actually received a PM from anyone in TC asking about anything you post on Avcanada?

[Shiny Side Up]

Yes. Or at least they claimed to be, since this is a forum, I have no real way of knowing for sure.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Yes. Or at least they claimed to be, since this is a forum, I have no real way of knowing for sure.

Interesting.

It is possible I guess because knowing some of the types who work for TCCA nothing they would do would surprise me.

I would love for one of them to PM me and try and get info on anything I post that they don't like.

All they need do is give me their e-mail address at TCCA and their name and position in TCCA and I would be pleased to communicate with them.