Going rate for an annual

[maigashi]

Just wondering, ballpark, what the going rate is for an annual on a simple fixed gear cessna or piper. Thanks.
Maigashi

[ybp]

$2000 plus any repairs...If the AME doesn't know that particular airplane it tends to be a bit more than usual. (At least if I do it.)

[Ballsssssss]

$10 000. If it's less you got a great deal and shouldn't piss and moan like all private owners do when they get the bill.

[_dwj_]

$500 fixed price from our local AME.

[SeptRepair]

For 500/annual, what kind of a hanger is the guy using? Or let me guess, with out a hanger his overhead is minimal and therfor he passes the savings on to his customer?

[ahramin]

$500 fixed price from our local AME.

Exactly. You get $500 worth of annual and then a signature. If this is the way you want to go, it's better just to pay someone $100 for the signature and forget the annual.

An annual costs what it costs to get everything done or it's not an annual, it's a signature.

[Ballsssssss]

$500 fixed price from our local AME.

$500 for an oil change and a signature. Let me guess..he has been doing your annual for years and you don't fly that much, so "I know the plane, what possibly could happen during 5 hrs of flying per year?" ....takes his $500 CASH and signs it out. It happens a lot. Someone somewhere down the line is going to end up paying.

[_dwj_]

This $500 guy has been an AME for about 50 years and he has his own hangar, but he is based out in the middle of the countryside so he doesn't have huge expenses. He does the annuals for most of the planes based here, and he knows pretty much everything there is to know about small piston engine planes, although he doesn't touch avionics.

From what I hear, $500 or so is the going rate for these old guys, but they are getting harder to find because they all seem to be retiring. Or you can go to a large AMO and spend $1500, but you won't necessarily get a better job.

[wrenchturner]

This $500 guy has been an AME for about 50 years and he has his own hangar, but he is based out in the middle of the countryside so he doesn't have huge expenses. He does the annuals for most of the planes based here, and he knows pretty much everything there is to know about small piston engine planes, although he doesn't touch avionics.

From what I hear, $500 or so is the going rate for these old guys, but they are getting harder to find because they all seem to be retiring. Or you can go to a large AMO and spend $1500, but you won't necessarily get a better job.

Sorry man, but for $500, all you are getting is a signature and maybe an oil change. I bet he doesn't even check compressions, he might pull the prop through and "see how it feels"

If you aren't paying $2000, you aren't getting a real inspection. That is $2000 minimum, add on for any parts required, defects he finds, things like that.

[_dwj_]

Sorry man, but for $500, all you are getting is a signature and maybe an oil change. I bet he doesn't even check compressions, he might pull the prop through and "see how it feels"

If you aren't paying $2000, you aren't getting a real inspection. That is $2000 minimum, add on for any parts required, defects he finds, things like that.

The $500 annual includes a proper compression check (not just swinging the prop) and checking all the control cables, plus all the other usual stuff. Any repairs and parts cost extra.

[ahramin]

My annuals cost $0, but I do them myself.

[l_reason]

I'd say if your thinking about buying and owning a plane I'd put $3000+ for the first annual your paying for. Until the AME has seen the plane a few years in a row the annuals are going to cost you more then $1500.

Just remember that planes are not like cars. A plane will last for 30-70 years a good car is good for about 20 years. The difference is that when somethings not write in a car you patch it up enough to get a few more years. If your going to own an old plane you might as well just spend the money to fix stuff right. If you put it off until next year the parts are going to cost you a couple bucks more and your spending money for someone to fix it twice.

Sooner or later you will bring it in for an oil change and it will cost you a couple grand, all out of the blue. A Mag, cylinder, radio, carb, exhaust, instrument or any number of other things will cost a minimum of $1000 to fix or change.

[SeptRepair]

Ok so im going to play devils advocate here and ask how many hours is reasonable to conduct an annual inspection on lets say a Cessna 172 circa 1978. Now how many hours to conduct the same inspection if you have been doing the annual on this same aircraft for the last 5 years? What is a reasonable shop rate per hour? I personally can do a thorough inspection in 12 hours, logs signed. This includes changing the oil, filter, compass swing etc.

[crazy_aviator]

Ok so im going to play devils advocate here and ask how many hours is reasonable to conduct an annual inspection on lets say a Cessna 172 circa 1978. Now how many hours to conduct the same inspection if you have been doing the annual on this same aircraft for the last 5 years? What is a reasonable shop rate per hour? I personally can do a thorough inspection in 12 hours, logs signed. This includes changing the oil, filter, compass swing etc.

A book value annual of 16 hours ( no snags ) would run an average of 1200.00 + tx in my neck of the woods, a thorough annual would entail MINIMUM of 2 days work ,,,therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE to do a thorough ( 200Hr. equivalent) annual in 12 hrs!!!

[Ballsssssss]

Ok so im going to play devils advocate here and ask how many hours is reasonable to conduct an annual inspection on lets say a Cessna 172 circa 1978. Now how many hours to conduct the same inspection if you have been doing the annual on this same aircraft for the last 5 years? What is a reasonable shop rate per hour? I personally can do a thorough inspection in 12 hours, logs signed. This includes changing the oil, filter, compass swing etc.

I am not going to respond to that because I did the math and realized that I would likely end up charging around $800 for the annual, plus snags. $800 is pretty close to that $500 I was criticizing earlier and I hate to admit being wrong, so I won't say anything at all.

[hangarline]

Here's what we do as a typical annual inspection.(172) For a first time having never looked at the aircraft before, we will charge 20 hours labour.(a separate AD research, if requested, is approx. 3 hours) This will cover the inspection and the service items that are part of the "annual".(compass swing, tach calibration, spark plug cleaning, compression test, wheel bearing cleaning and relubing, etc.) Any items noted on the inspection that require repair are of course going to take more labour. Parts are extra. Typical shop rate for a small AMO range between $65 to $85 per hour. Now, for example the same aircraft hangared on site and flying around 40 hours a year, the next inspection would be probably around the 12 to 15 hours to complete. We would not do wheel bearings untill the 200 hour accumulation mark. I still believe though that the aircraft should be thoroughly inspected(as per the inspection program that it is following, typically CAR 625). Parts are going to fluctuate year to year. As an example, brake linings may need replacing every third year, spark plugs after 500 hours, that type of thing. Where the cost starts to go up and I'm not sure if all owners are aware of, but the time it takes to look up part numbers, call for pricing and ordering, receiving the parts, certifying them, updating the maintenance library, remaining compliant with the latest CAR revisions, manufacturers bulletins and every other item that is required to keep the certificate hanging on the wall, all add time to completing the inspection properly.

I think that is a fair estimate of what a typical annual inspection looks like from our point of view. So, for that first inspection on a 172, you could figure on approx. $2000.00. Could be a bit higher, could be a bit lower.

[mag check]

Ok so im going to play devils advocate here and ask how many hours is reasonable to conduct an annual inspection on lets say a Cessna 172 circa 1978. Now how many hours to conduct the same inspection if you have been doing the annual on this same aircraft for the last 5 years? What is a reasonable shop rate per hour? I personally can do a thorough inspection in 12 hours, logs signed. This includes changing the oil, filter, compass swing etc.

A book value annual of 16 hours ( no snags ) would run an average of 1200.00 + tx in my neck of the woods, a thorough annual would entail MINIMUM of 2 days work ,,,therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE to do a thorough ( 200Hr. equivalent) annual in 12 hrs!!!

Totally agree Crazy_aviator.

[office_supply]

Maybe Im missing something, but.. assuming an annual is done by following the 100hrs/annual inspection procedure as written by the aircraft manufacturer.. I fail to see how annual number 1 could cost 20 hours of labour, but annual number 2 could cost 12 hours.

Does this mean you do a thorough job on 1 but slack off on 2?

Or does this mean you milk the customer on 1 but then give him a break on 2 because he's a repeat customer?

Of course most people know - or are told - that their first annual is going to be quite expensive. But that shouldnt be because the rate of the annual itself is more. Now you're saying a first timer pays nearly double what a regular pays, on top of likely a dozen or so hours of extra labour to fix up snags?

My first annual cost me a pretty penny, about 3000 loonies. But that was due to a lot of extras that needed to be done. The next year, there werent as many of those extras. The annual inspection itself didnt cost me any more or less.

At 20 hours for an annual - and since you charge that many hours I assume your rate is also... 90/hour? - so thats 1800 dollars plus tax just for you to open a few inspection panels and change oil!! I'll stick to my 800 dollar annuals thank you!

[hangarline]

Let me clarify this again. You notice that I said the first inspection was going to be 20 hours labour. The second annual on the same aircraft at the same shop the next year I said would be from 12 to 15 hours labour. The saving of the hours to do subsequent inspections will be less because I would not have to for example, check items like travel stops(which don't move), wheel bearings(untill they accumulate 200 hours), cable turnbuckle lockwiring, log books for completeness(over many years sometimes) or serial and part numbers of installed components for compliance with type certificates. These are the items that take the extra time to do on an annual inspection that sometimes get taken for granted. You will notice that I said that I believe the aircraft should still have a thorough inspecton on it and that is still true even though some items(above mentioned) do not need repeating if they were inspected by the same AME previously.
When an owner is told that his/her first annual inspection at shop"A" is going to probably be more expensive that what was being done at shop"B", the likely reason is that shop"A" is having to play catch up on items that were overlooked or not done properly in order to give you your $800 annual inspections.
I will be frank telling you that you are just not going to get a complete inspection for $800 from an AMO.

[KISS_MY_TCAS]

Shop rate at the dealership for my truck is $105/hour. It is a 2004 model. It also has OBDII, the technicians get off pretty easy a lot of the time diagnosing for the flat rate the shop bills.

When an owner pulls up in his brand new truck to bitch about the bill on his high performance retractable gear single, I just smile. I charge nowhere near what it costs to fix the truck, and the aircraft is worth significantly more. All diagnostics are done the old fashioned way, and it takes time. I cannot plug a scanner in and have it tell me where to go, I learned it over time. The aircraft most private owners fly are far from new, and need TLC in some areas due to either age or useage. When I say a part should be changed based on what I see and where my experience lies, I mean it. I don't want an arguement, I want to stay out of court and funeral parlours. I do not mark up parts which I can aquire for cheaper than most because it means more work, which I don't like any more than the owner does. I do bill time for the arguements also, so you best make sure you're right if you challenge me. And owners please, buy manuals for your aircraft. I hate borrowing from people I have made contacts with over the years, but without them the inspection or parts research would not even happen for the tightwads that don't want to spend the few hundred. My connections may also sometimes bill me, so quite honestly it would be cheaper for the owner to aquire thier own manuals, the amount I bill over 2 years for time borrowing would get you a nice new set of books for yourself. Flat rate in a 20 year old manual goes out the window, that rate was established when the airplane was new, had manuals, had never been overstressed, had no damage history, had few ADs, didn't sit out for 12 months of the year exposed to wind, rain, snow and wildlife. I bill my annual as I feel I should. The additional write ups and cost is usually where owners get mad. All repairs are done on owner approval, and the rate is done on owner approval, so how can you complain when the bill arrives? To whomever is doing the $500-$800 annuals, pass along your contact info. I know a few owners who could save money by flying across Canada and getting a hotel while you did the work.

[crazy_aviator]

I do not mark up parts which I can aquire for cheaper than most because it means more work, which I don't like any more than the owner does.

You are cutting yourself short AND doing a disservice to the industry when you buy then sell parts at cost ,,,,i used to do that, i smartened up !! No wonder AME S are treated poorly and have relatively low wages,,,,maybe its lacking wisdom and being too nice ???

[office_supply]

I do not mark up parts which I can aquire for cheaper than most because it means more work, which I don't like any more than the owner does.

You are cutting yourself short AND doing a disservice to the industry when you buy then sell parts at cost ,,,,i used to do that, i smartened up !!

My AME does this as well. And I wasnt happy at all when I got my first bill and noticed a part on there for 148 dollars when I could have gotten it for a little over half that price!! Lets just say I've made it clear with my AME that any special parts required, he tells me and I order them. Except for small stuff like screws, washers, gaskets, etc. I really dont see the reason for such a huge markup.

[mag check]

I do not mark up parts which I can aquire for cheaper than most because it means more work, which I don't like any more than the owner does.

You are cutting yourself short AND doing a disservice to the industry when you buy then sell parts at cost ,,,,i used to do that, i smartened up !!

My AME does this as well. And I wasnt happy at all when I got my first bill and noticed a part on there for 148 dollars when I could have gotten it for a little over half that price!! Lets just say I've made it clear with my AME that any special parts required, he tells me and I order them. Except for small stuff like screws, washers, gaskets, etc. I really dont see the reason for such a huge markup.

So when you go and get your car/truck/motorcycle/boat etc. worked on at a dealership, do you buy all the parts and have them put them on? They would probably laugh you out the door.

I assume that you are in the office supply business, and would assume that the way you make money is by marking up the supplies that you buy wholesale, and sell them at retail to the guy that comes in the door.
Would you let me come in and buy something from you at the price that you paid?
I doubt it.
Why would you expect that the aviation industry should be different than any other industry in the world?
By the way, what's the margin on office supplies, 60%?

[624]

My AME does this as well. And I wasnt happy at all when I got my first bill and noticed a part on there for 148 dollars when I could have gotten it for a little over half that price!! Lets just say I've made it clear with my AME that any special parts required, he tells me and I order them. Except for small stuff like screws, washers, gaskets, etc. I really dont see the reason for such a huge markup.

So it's ok for the rest of the working world to mark up parts but not AME'S? You probably don't mark up your office supplies either.

One time my office supplier said to me, "What's the point of me even coming here to tell you what you need if your going to buy it from someone else." Well of course I told him he charges to much. Let's just say I've made it clear with my office supplier that any office supplies required, he tells me and I order them.

[iflyforpie]

I base an annual on 12 billable hours for your typical single engine fixed gear aircraft. This is inspection (including tach check, compass swing), an AD search for ADs that came out within the last two years, and a basic journey log release. Filters, oil, and other parts are on top of that.

My rate isn't flat, it changes. For sure I am going to spend two solid days on an aircraft I have never seen before. If the owner wants to do panels, remove seats, and degrease parts, the billable time will wind up being less.

For my first-time annual customers, I am digging through the tech logs, (and updating them if required) to find out where their out-of-phase items and ADs stand. I input that into a database so the next time they come, I don't have to bill them for those hours.

For parts, we sell ours at list price and typically get them between 25% - 40% cheaper than that. I have no problem charging that. With the amount of inventory a decently equipped shop has to sit on, that extra cushion is needed.

If a customer wants to get their own parts, fine. They are doing on their own time, and they will probably only save 10%-15%.

Freelance AMEs using the big-sky hangar can save you a ton of money. But I highly doubt they are inspecting the aircraft to the same degree as someone in a lighted, heated hangar. That is why there is often such a sticker shock when the freelance goes away and the AMO charging a fair rate finds a ton of things wrong with the aircraft...