Not sure about this - but why does the PF need to have the HSI in front of him when shooting an gps approach?
As you can legally shoot a ILS if its on the left side and you are from the right side? There is no difference.. its just coupled to the GSP..
I have 1 theory but want to see if anyone else has the WHY?
GPS Approaches - Need instrument in front of PF
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Re: GPS Approaches - Need instrument in front of PF
To keep all the vital info inside the T-scan.
The only way to elevate a panel mount or any other basic GPS unit to IFR status is to couple it through an HSI. We need an HSI to dig all the extra information out of the GPS and translate it into a familiar picture. Good for the situational awareness, eh. High end GPS models and complete glass cockpits (EHSI and such) will integrate all the information without a steam HSI or even a visible GPS unit (instead, there will be flight directors and others modern gadgetry).
I wouldn't shoot an ILS with the HSI needle coupled to the GPS's horizontal information. The coupling switch (NAV/GPS) should be set to NAV for traditional ILS approaches. Sure, you could set the runway threshold on the gps and figure out your own glide slope, SCDA style. But that's not ILS in the classic definition.
What's your theory?
The only way to elevate a panel mount or any other basic GPS unit to IFR status is to couple it through an HSI. We need an HSI to dig all the extra information out of the GPS and translate it into a familiar picture. Good for the situational awareness, eh. High end GPS models and complete glass cockpits (EHSI and such) will integrate all the information without a steam HSI or even a visible GPS unit (instead, there will be flight directors and others modern gadgetry).
I wouldn't shoot an ILS with the HSI needle coupled to the GPS's horizontal information. The coupling switch (NAV/GPS) should be set to NAV for traditional ILS approaches. Sure, you could set the runway threshold on the gps and figure out your own glide slope, SCDA style. But that's not ILS in the classic definition.
What's your theory?
Re: GPS Approaches - Need instrument in front of PF
Not sure if you understood or i might of done wrote it wrong..
if you are flying on the right side.. but you DON"T have an ILS (HSI whatever) but its on the left side you are legal to shoot the approach - I have even done a my IFR ride this way.. But still have all the other instrumetns on my side.
But for a GPS approach it stats you must have the HSI infront of the pilot... So i can leagaly shoot an ILS approach on the right side with the ILS on the left side but not a GPS..
So funny..
if you are flying on the right side.. but you DON"T have an ILS (HSI whatever) but its on the left side you are legal to shoot the approach - I have even done a my IFR ride this way.. But still have all the other instrumetns on my side.
But for a GPS approach it stats you must have the HSI infront of the pilot... So i can leagaly shoot an ILS approach on the right side with the ILS on the left side but not a GPS..
So funny..
Re: GPS Approaches - Need instrument in front of PF
Legal schmegal...
That's in interesting contradiction if that is the way the wording is interpreted.
I've seen too many setups in IFR/GPS aircraft where the co-pilot's HSI doesn't get its own NAV/GPS switch. Even worse, no HSI at all. The old compass card and VOR head stuck on permanent NAV2 function sure helps to make 1 guy feel left out of the cockpit.
Your are in a pretty normal situation common to a 703/704 setup, or a flight school or your own plane. If the guy in the left is ok with the way things are going I'm sure you can pull off a couple GPS approaches here and there. Expect him to take control of an approach if you let things wander, which is easy to do when your eyes are wandering all over the cockpit trying to scan info that's not conveniently placed.
Sure, technically you might say he 'flew' the approach. But let's try to find some grey area here so you can test your hands and feet along the way.
Please keep in mind, if weather is down to minimumsish, it usually works best when the pilot who is most properly set up with all the right equipment is the PF. In this case the left seater. This is not much different than if I get, let's say, a wonky horizon during the descent and had to pass the controls over to the trusted first officer for the approach. His panel is 100%. Give'r. I like radios.
That's in interesting contradiction if that is the way the wording is interpreted.
I've seen too many setups in IFR/GPS aircraft where the co-pilot's HSI doesn't get its own NAV/GPS switch. Even worse, no HSI at all. The old compass card and VOR head stuck on permanent NAV2 function sure helps to make 1 guy feel left out of the cockpit.
Your are in a pretty normal situation common to a 703/704 setup, or a flight school or your own plane. If the guy in the left is ok with the way things are going I'm sure you can pull off a couple GPS approaches here and there. Expect him to take control of an approach if you let things wander, which is easy to do when your eyes are wandering all over the cockpit trying to scan info that's not conveniently placed.
Sure, technically you might say he 'flew' the approach. But let's try to find some grey area here so you can test your hands and feet along the way.
Please keep in mind, if weather is down to minimumsish, it usually works best when the pilot who is most properly set up with all the right equipment is the PF. In this case the left seater. This is not much different than if I get, let's say, a wonky horizon during the descent and had to pass the controls over to the trusted first officer for the approach. His panel is 100%. Give'r. I like radios.
Re: GPS Approaches - Need instrument in front of PF
I don't think you can fly an ILS (or any other approach) if you have no indicator in front of you.
523.1321 Arrangement and Visibility
(a) Each flight, navigation, and powerplant instrument for use by any required pilot during takeoff, initial climb, final approach, and landing must be located so that any pilot seated at the controls can monitor the aeroplane's flight path and these instruments with minimum head and eye movement. The powerplant instruments for these flight conditions are those needed to set power within powerplant limitations.
AC 20-138A requires that the CDI connected to a GPS/GNSS receiver be within the pilot’s primary field of view, which the AC defines as within 15 degrees of the pilot’s primary line of sight. Taken literally, this would mean that the CDI would need to be within roughly a 6½" radius of the center of the Attitude Indicator (AI) on most aircraft.
For aircraft certified for single pilot operations, there is no certification requirement to provide any indicators or annunciators on the co-pilot’s side. However, an operator may choose to provide GPS/GNSS navigation information on the co-pilot’s side, either as back-up information, or to allow the pilot in the co-pilot’s seat to perform all flying and navigating duties. If GPS guidance is provided to a CDI/HSI on the co-pilot’s side, it is strongly recommended that the required annunciators noted above be installed for the co-pilot, if the constraints of subsection 5.4 (above) cannot be met. Otherwise, a flight manual limitation may be added, requiring that GPS approaches be flown by the pilot in the pilot’s seat.
Also CBAAC 123R:
Control Display Unit (CDU) and Course Deviation Indicator (CDI)/Distance Display for Aircraft Types Certified for Single Pilot Operation but Operated by Two Crew
The aircraft certification requirements for GPS installed at the pilot position requires:
CDI in primary field of view; annunciators in primary field of view; control unit to be adequately accessible and that the Aircraft Flight Manual Supplement include the appropriate limitations and procedures. If the GPS/FMS control unit is not adequately accessible from each pilot position, or if GPS course deviation and distance displays are not within the primary field of view at both pilot stations, it will be necessary to designate (in the company’s SOPs and in the Operations Specification authorizing GPS approaches) the position that the pilot flying (PF) and PNF must occupy during GPS approach for that type of installation. An Operations Specification authorizing GPS approaches shall not be issued unless the PNF has an acceptable means of monitoring the PF during an approach.
CDU and CDI/Distance Display for Aircraft Types that are Certified for Operation by Two Crewmembers
Shall have GPS course deviation and distance displays at each pilot station. An Operations Specification authorizing GPS approaches shall not be issued unless the PNF has an acceptable means of monitoring the PF during an approach.
It sucks to be an f/o on a FAR 23 airplane.
523.1321 Arrangement and Visibility
(a) Each flight, navigation, and powerplant instrument for use by any required pilot during takeoff, initial climb, final approach, and landing must be located so that any pilot seated at the controls can monitor the aeroplane's flight path and these instruments with minimum head and eye movement. The powerplant instruments for these flight conditions are those needed to set power within powerplant limitations.
AC 20-138A requires that the CDI connected to a GPS/GNSS receiver be within the pilot’s primary field of view, which the AC defines as within 15 degrees of the pilot’s primary line of sight. Taken literally, this would mean that the CDI would need to be within roughly a 6½" radius of the center of the Attitude Indicator (AI) on most aircraft.
For aircraft certified for single pilot operations, there is no certification requirement to provide any indicators or annunciators on the co-pilot’s side. However, an operator may choose to provide GPS/GNSS navigation information on the co-pilot’s side, either as back-up information, or to allow the pilot in the co-pilot’s seat to perform all flying and navigating duties. If GPS guidance is provided to a CDI/HSI on the co-pilot’s side, it is strongly recommended that the required annunciators noted above be installed for the co-pilot, if the constraints of subsection 5.4 (above) cannot be met. Otherwise, a flight manual limitation may be added, requiring that GPS approaches be flown by the pilot in the pilot’s seat.
Also CBAAC 123R:
Control Display Unit (CDU) and Course Deviation Indicator (CDI)/Distance Display for Aircraft Types Certified for Single Pilot Operation but Operated by Two Crew
The aircraft certification requirements for GPS installed at the pilot position requires:
CDI in primary field of view; annunciators in primary field of view; control unit to be adequately accessible and that the Aircraft Flight Manual Supplement include the appropriate limitations and procedures. If the GPS/FMS control unit is not adequately accessible from each pilot position, or if GPS course deviation and distance displays are not within the primary field of view at both pilot stations, it will be necessary to designate (in the company’s SOPs and in the Operations Specification authorizing GPS approaches) the position that the pilot flying (PF) and PNF must occupy during GPS approach for that type of installation. An Operations Specification authorizing GPS approaches shall not be issued unless the PNF has an acceptable means of monitoring the PF during an approach.
CDU and CDI/Distance Display for Aircraft Types that are Certified for Operation by Two Crewmembers
Shall have GPS course deviation and distance displays at each pilot station. An Operations Specification authorizing GPS approaches shall not be issued unless the PNF has an acceptable means of monitoring the PF during an approach.
It sucks to be an f/o on a FAR 23 airplane.
You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on
