unions

[bigbrow]

Hi all,
I have some questions about AME unions. I want to know what kind of options there are for joining a union from an AME standpoint. What Unions are other AME's in. I think Air Canada for example is in the CAW.
I'm not one of these pro union types, but it seems these days it might be the only way to have some job security and also depend on getting paid decently for working our asses off. Also it seems that pilots are more often unionized then AME's any thoughts on that?

Cheers,
Big Brow

[godsrcrazy]

Well if a company goes broke you have no job security. If you are not doing your job then you should get your A$$ run out. It is usually only the weak that look for a union to cover there back side. What makes you think a union will give you job security. Do you believe the company you are working for is making a fist full of money and not sharing with the employees. If they aren't then were do you think better wages will come from.

As you can tell i have no use for unions. They are usually only good for 1 thing and that is protect the weak.

[Giveitago]

I am now looking forward to reading this thread.......than you godscrazy!

[godsrcrazy]

its called stirring the pot. Have at it. As i said i have no use for unions joined once not for long for all the reasons above. The biggest complainers were the most useless.

Even union employees can't get along with there own union.

Unions reach tentative deal

Dec. 17, 2009 - The workers are off the picket line.

After nine days of striking, 10 people working for the Union of Northern Workers have agreed to a tentative deal.

The employees are represented by the United Steelworkers, and have been asking for a classification system to better describe their job duties.

No details are available on the deal, but UNW President Todd Parsons has said a classification system is not reasonable for only ten workers.

The two sides say they will release more information on the agreement early next week.

[iflyforpie]

+1 I have no use for unions either.

I was at Cascade Aerospace as a contractor when they unionized (I think it was CAW).

Now, to be fair, the company had screwed over their employees with wage cuts, an American run management with zero accountability, and a generally poor company culture. That being said, the biggest proponents for unionization were the weakest and the laziest.

The management knew how to play the game and when it came to certification, then bargaining. The employees collapsed so fast on a strike vote it wasn't even funny. They signed a long contract for a slight wage increase that was pretty much erased by union dues.

Unions are a business. Their job is to have as many members as they can (pigeon holing) making as much wages as they can (so dues are higher) regardless of the company's ability to pay.

Unions might be able to keep your job based on seniority. But the hard worker who was hired a month ago is going to be let go while the lazy slob who's been there for ten years and been fired twice (but got his job back because of winning grievances) is going to stay.

[itismedd]

I certainly agree........Unions are for the dogs. They also hold no job security, when it comes down to it. Look at Royal Maintenance C3 bought them and they were unionized. Where is their job security? Yes I know it was different circumstances but still.

If you want to become a disgruntled employee for the rest of aviation career..........join a union. I was at Jazz for 3 months and it was the longest 2 yrs of my life. I met a lot of good people there dont get me wrong but the union atmosphere was wicked. And if I were to pick a union the CAW would be the last one on the list.

One thing is for sure .....the grass isnt always greener.

[tyndall]

Unions are a business. Their job is to have as many members as they can (pigeon holing) making as much wages as they can (so dues are higher) regardless of the company's ability to pay.

I've worked for exactly two unionized companies. Both times the union threatened to go on strike for more money. Both companies said they couldn't afford it. Both unions rallied everyone to strike (the company's lying! we know best! rah, rah, etc, etc). One company moved south of the border, the other closed its doors. The unions sure showed them who's boss.

Unions might be able to keep your job based on seniority. But the hard worker who was hired a month ago is going to be let go while the lazy slob who's been there for ten years and been fired twice (but got his job back because of winning grievances) is going to stay.

My wife works for the gubberment. When she started her position there was another woman there who didn't do shit and everyone hated. This person was coming in late, always had doctor appointments and finally took a leave of absence. They hired a temp to replace her. A year later she came back for a few days and then went on a years maternity leave. The temp, who is a hard worker and well liked, can't keep the position because of a union rule that allows the useless ***** to keep it during "temporary absences". Three f'n days out of two years? WTF?!

Being unionized adds one more layer of management that can screw you over with their own agenda.

[bigbert]

Unions have SOME advantages, including "job security" but the big thing is SENIORITY. I think the big thing a union is good for is health and safety, and protecting you in case of incidents and helping you with "right to refuse". The disgruntled comment is definitely true tho, I have never been more disgruntled then when I was with the union. I did enjoy my double time ot tho.

[flyinggreasemonkey]

To hell with seniority.

If some brand new hire works harder and does a better job than some schmuck who's been there for 20 years and does f* all, then the new guy deserves better pay and a higher spot on the ladder.

Progressing up the pay scale should be based on progression of quality and abilities as the person gains more experience and training in the shop, not how long they've sat on their fat ass getting paid for nothing.

[godsrcrazy]

I am now looking forward to reading this thread.......than you godscrazy!

I bet you thought that this would turn on me. Must say i did as well.
Glad to see i am not the only 1 that feels this way. There is no doubt that unions had a time and place. As some one said earlier. They have turned into big business it's not all about the employees any more. They have a bottom line to feed as well.

[kilpicki]

If you do go on strike is your union rep or the bargining group without pay?

Of course not they still get full pay.

[Fire1]

Well if a company goes broke you have no job security. If you are not doing your job then you should get your A$$ run out. It is usually only the weak that look for a union to cover there back side. What makes you think a union will give you job security. Do you believe the company you are working for is making a fist full of money and not sharing with the employees. If they aren't then were do you think better wages will come from.

As you can tell i have no use for unions. They are usually only good for 1 thing and that is protect the weak.

Agreed!

[roscoe]

To hell with seniority.

If some brand new hire works harder and does a better job than some schmuck who's been there for 20 years and does f* all, then the new guy deserves better pay and a higher spot on the ladder.

Progressing up the pay scale should be based on progression of quality and abilities as the person gains more experience and training in the shop, not how long they've sat on their fat ass getting paid for nothing.

I promised myself I wouldn't take the bait.....In a perfect world, advancement on effort and merit is great and should be the only way up the "ladder" HOWEVER, we all know that is not how the butt kissers and useless boobies get ahead of the guy who improves himself and produces! People who run companies and unions need to pull their heads out, and get into the 21st century, and leave the 1900's behind!
My $0.02

[canadian ame]

play around with other jobs that pay better money and have better hours, then when you find somthing that pays make the jump.

get a job were you can control the work you do and also the amount you can charge for your services or skills.

i have worked in 5 different places in the world, and carry M1 M2, EASA B1 and A&P to keep employed on real money and i still struggled, AME's get treated like crap world wide we are seen as grease money's, and trust me when i say this, there is a real shortage of engineers, and employers know it but hide it very well because if we all understood that we the ames have the power we might demand more money! so the game goes on in trying to make us think we need the job and the pay they give us.

bettween laying hard wood floors, fixing cars, moterbikes, fixing wiring snags, laying tiles i am never out of work and make more money per year using skills in other areas that aviation had given me.

keep in mind employers love pegging people against each other because they always win when the brown nosers bust their ass for peanuts.

and if all else fails, well you can always go back to aviation

[HS-748 2A]

This has been really fun. You can call me a +1 to all of the above.



'48

[Pat Richard]

play around with other jobs that pay better money and have better hours, then when you find somthing that pays make the jump.

get a job were you can control the work you do and also the amount you can charge for your services or skills.

i have worked in 5 different places in the world, and carry M1 M2, EASA B1 and A&P to keep employed on real money and i still struggled, AME's get treated like crap world wide we are seen as grease money's, and trust me when i say this, there is a real shortage of engineers, and employers know it but hide it very well because if we all understood that we the ames have the power we might demand more money! so the game goes on in trying to make us think we need the job and the pay they give us.

bettween laying hard wood floors, fixing cars, moterbikes, fixing wiring snags, laying tiles i am never out of work and make more money per year using skills in other areas that aviation had given me.

keep in mind employers love pegging people against each other because they always win when the brown nosers bust their ass for peanuts.

and if all else fails, well you can always go back to aviation

+1 for this. The more experienced take to this type of thinking, the better.

It's always expected of the AME to be the "good guy", "team player", etc, and not ask for/expect proper compensation and treatment. Put your head down, do as your told/be happy you have a job. Unfortunately, there have been many who have gone along with it in the past, to the extent it was the norm, and it still exists.
Thing's like having to pay your own way(5 hour one way driving) to an interview, pay for your own shots(medevac airplane), mandatory overtime expected at straight wages, being expected to to work 14 hours plus because some jackass crewchief promise the world to the owner without thinking WTF needed to be done, etc, etc, etc. The list is long.
That may someday change, but I doubt it, and the above post's advice about trying different things is excellent. The more options you have, the less potential control/pressure that an employer can exert on you. Employers hate that. They want mindless dummies, scared shitless about losing their jobs, in debt over their heads, to fill hangar floors. It does'nt seem to be working that well for them anymore.
I know lots of very experienced guys who have either left this crap industry completely, or pick and choose when, and who they want to work for, and many newbies getting out after a brief stint.

A sign of things to come, me thinks.

[bigbert]

Thing's like having to pay your own way(5 hour one way driving) to an interview, pay for your own shots(medevac airplane), mandatory overtime expected at straight wages, being expected to to work 14 hours plus because some jackass crewchief promise the world to the owner without thinking WTF needed to be done, etc, etc, etc. The list is long.

That I don't get, a buddy of mine had an inteview for a decent sized company, located around a bay, NORTHern Ontario, he lives in Sask, and they wanted him to fly there during the holiday season, they wouldn't do a phone interview. The shot and overtime at straight wage, doesn't that go against the Labour Code. I thought companies had to provide you with the means and training to be safe, weather it be respirators, or shots? And OT I don't think there are many ways around it unless it in your employment agreement. Please if I'm wrong some one correct me.

[godsrcrazy]

You cannot get away with out paying over time unless. The company applies for a permit that will allow people the work rotation work. Doing things like 2 weeks on and 2 weeks of lots of remote companies do this. If you are working a normal 5 day work schedule i don't think they can get away with out paying even if the employee agree to his. It is called contracting out side the labour law and is only legal if the government gives you a permit to do so.

[lupin]

Interesting thread.

Some background,I presently work in a large union shop as an AME. Prior to this job, I did some contracting around Ontario and prior to that I worked for two non union shops.

When I first started for the union shop, the first shock was getting "asked" for overtime. In prior jobs, I had never been asked for overtime. I was usually told that I was working overtime. Sometime I would show up at 8 in the morning and was told to go back home as an aeroplane was going to be arriving at 21:00 and we were to pull an all nighter to do an inspection on it. It's nice to get "asked" for overtime. lol

The two non union shops I worked for had strange arrangements for overtime. The first did not pay it and the hours were banked at straight time (you could use the hours in the bank to pay for tools or flying hours in the company rental plane). The second company was forced to start paying it after a pilot complained to the labour board. The arrangement the company made with the labour board was to pay OT on a quarterly basis. If you went over the roughly 500 hour target, you got paid overtime at the quarter's end. Great system n'es-ce pas?

I am now in a union shop and I see the problems associated with that system as well. It's not rosy either side. The union seem very efficient at protecting dead weight. They seem incapable of seeing the harm done to the group of union members, by the dead weight. Employees who don't contribute their fair share are not dealt with and it creates animosity between the employees. I have attempted to see if things could be changed within the union system but so many are pulling hard for the status quo that the conditions aren't ripe for change. The union members attending union meetings on a regular basis represents about 1% of the entire membership. These employees are also not representative of the labour group. It seems the radicals, the weak and the employees who contributed very little end up getting involved in the union's operation. With that sort of involvement, you get the expected results.

Most of us AMEs will not get involved with the operation of a union. We aren't interested in the politics of defending the deadbeat employees. If we did get involved, we probably wouldn't defend him. Sometime the defense of an employee is legitimate and sometime it isn't. The current union model has no way to identify the legitimacy of each case, so all are defended.

That being said, I think the union model is not completely bad. What needs to happen is a change in the way the union works and it's role in the workplace. It's easy to think that you are the best person to represent your interests but when you are dealing with a corporation which has transport Canada eating out of it's hand, countless monetary resources and lawyers on retainers, some sort of representative body would be nice.

A voice would be nice when:

-companies decide to reduce training to the minimums to save costs
-minimum training is not followed
-the company cuts corners on maintenance
-employees are forced to work extra long hours without adequate rest
-corporation try to get Transport Canada rules affecting AME changed (the AME duty days debacle is a good example of this with both WJ and AC lobbying against max hours for the AME but that is for another thread)
-going to TC to address SMS shortcommings is required

Our AME associations might be nice to help with the above but since they are comprised of the directors of maintenance of the various companies, I do not consider they represent the "real" AMEs.

That's my 2 cents.

[PJ1]

. These employees are also not representative of the labour group. It seems the radicals, the weak and the employees who contributed very little end up getting involved in the union's operation. With that sort of involvement, you get the expected results.

This is not far from the truth. I like to think my past union involvement was a exception to this. Either way your f'd if you do f'd if you dont.

[bigbrow]

clearly a hot topic!

some people are just angry out here, and maybe rightfully so.

Do you believe the company you are working for is making a fist full of money and not sharing with the employees.

Yes! I know they are. Claiming there is no money to give an annual raise for 2 yrs running, but handing out million dollar cheques as a bonus to a very select few. How can anyone get a million dollar bonus if the company is doing so crap that they can't afford to give a small cost of living increase?

It is this type of crap that having a collective agreement would stop. There are so many "old school" thinkers out there that believe we should be making peanuts compared to everyone else in the industry, even though we are the back bone.

I understand unions protect the week and lazy, but what about the people who are just trying to make the rich owners pay up for good hard working engineers??

When I first started for the union shop, the first shock was getting "asked" for overtime. In prior jobs, I had never been asked for overtime. I was usually told that I was working overtime. Sometime I would show up at 8 in the morning and was told to go back home as an aeroplane was going to be arriving at 21:00 and we were to pull an all nighter to do an inspection on it. It's nice to get "asked" for overtime. lol

Engineers Duty day is another possible advantage of unions, right now there is no protection, and when you mess up something on hour 14, 15, or 16 guess what... its your fault because human factors should have told you to stop when your tired. but if you leave a job unfinnished your gonna be up S%*T's creek for not getting that plane out the door before you go home.

If that puts me in the group with all the "lazy" people then so be it, but I'd rather not have to defend my job everytime this scenario is possible.

B.B.

[godsrcrazy]

Do you believe the company you are working for is making a fist full of money and not sharing with the employees.

Yes! I know they are. Claiming there is no money to give an annual raise for 2 yrs running, but handing out million dollar cheques as a bonus to a very select few. How can anyone get a million dollar bonus if the company is doing so crap that they can't afford to give a small cost of living increase?

It is this type of crap that having a collective agreement would stop. There are so many "old school" thinkers out there that believe we should be making peanuts compared to everyone else in the industry, even though we are the back bone.

I understand unions protect the week and lazy, but what about the people who are just trying to make the rich owners pay up for good hard working engineers??


Oh my God were are you working. I have a hard time believing any company is handing out 1 million dollar bonus checks to a select few in today's economy. These guys must really have a cornered market. You don't seriously think some union collective agreement will stop management bonus checks. It may get you a small raise it won't stop the owners/management from getting checks. Just because you go union they don't have the right to audit financial statements on a privately owned company.

[tyndall]

One of the reasons for owning a company is so you are in control, running it the way you want. When the the employees unionize, you've lost control. You've basically subbed out your workforce to a third party. It's none of their damn business how much you make or the bonuses you give. You aren't in the business of providing jobs, you're in it to make money. Employing people is a side-effect. They have no right to demand that you share the wealth. Just like a woman who thinks she can change her boyfriend, it seldom works and nobody is happy. If they don't like it, they can go somewhere else. Or better yet, start their own company so they can give away their profits. Harsh? Yes. An employee is a cost, just like parts.

Bottom line, it's a privilege to have a job. If you don't like the one you're at, move on. Are AMEs underpaid? Maybe. There seems to be no shortage of new AMEs that know they will be paid less than a diesel mechanic. Same for pilots and daycare workers. If no company is paying you what you want and need, you've probably picked the wrong career. You could have just as easily went to school and became the white collar dweeb that is getting the million dollar bonus.

[lupin]

One of the reasons for owning a company is so you are in control, running it the way you want. When the the employees unionize, you've lost control. You've basically subbed out your workforce to a third party. It's none of their damn business how much you make or the bonuses you give. You aren't in the business of providing jobs, you're in it to make money. Employing people is a side-effect. They have no right to demand that you share the wealth. Just like a woman who thinks she can change her boyfriend, it seldom works and nobody is happy. If they don't like it, they can go somewhere else. Or better yet, start their own company so they can give away their profits. Harsh? Yes. An employee is a cost, just like parts.

Bottom line, it's a privilege to have a job. If you don't like the one you're at, move on. Are AMEs underpaid? Maybe. There seems to be no shortage of new AMEs that know they will be paid less than a diesel mechanic. Same for pilots and daycare workers. If no company is paying you what you want and need, you've probably picked the wrong career. You could have just as easily went to school and became the white collar dweeb that is getting the million dollar bonus.

Interesting vision of things.

Have you considered that if you treat your employees fairly you are unlikely to have employees who will want a union? Westjet seems to be doing just fine without a union....

As bad as unions may appear,companies usually get the unions they deserve. Treat employees fairly and you will not have problems. It's the word "fairly" that is the contentious part of that statement. None of the non unionised shops I have worked for have ever been up to the labour code. For myself it was a non event as other perks made up for it on a short term basis(flying hours on a company aircraft) but for other employees, the 60 hour work week with no paid overtime just didn't cut it. Should they just leave? Accept the status quo or go to the labour board?

[bandaid]

I have been a part of a lobour union for almost 30 years and I do agree with most of what you non unionist are saying. We have really had our ups and downs with our union but the icing on the cake was our last set of negotiations with our employer, the provincial governent in B.C.. It's too long and convoluted story to go into in detail, lets just say that had we taken the first offer we would have been on our way to the demands that we were asking for but it was turned down for us by our executive. In the end along came bill 21 which legislated a contract for us at 3% minus the original signing bonus of $4100.00.
One comment that was made eluded to the fact that if a company goes broke you have no job security, that is not unique to union employed companies and is kind of a redundant statement. It could happen to any company. I am actually a little better off in that I work for government, but that privatization threat is always there.
Whether you are in private industry or unionised job you will be negotiating for your working conditions, wages, benefits,..... ect. It may work out better if you have a consortium of sorts to help you with the negotiations, but then again it may not. Whatever, it is up to you to make the best of your working years so you can retire with dignity. Take care of your old age whatever you do, my union negotiated a pension plan for me, if that is not your case try and put 10% of your pay away each month for your twilight years.