Any word on this aircraft / where, when it will operate in a fire bombing role.

What Electra would that be? There's still a rotten hulk sitting beside the Cascade hangar. Is this the one you're thinking about?

Conair converted, operated and sold their only L.188 back in the late 1990s. It was Tanker 88 and now flies with Air Spray. Conair has said many times they're sticking with the Convair 580s, they think its a better platform than the Electra - plus they have contracts and sales for the CV580s.

B.C operating season 2010. It will have a 12 door tank to start and be converted to a RADS later.

FF

An Electra is in and the YXX FireCats are out. Doesn't mean anything other than there will be some base shuffle going on. However, with the desire to have an IFR group in YXX, a "new" addition to the fleet having teething problems and the fact that YXX is the Red Guys home then one could speculate that the L-188 will fill the void. Or maybe not.

So thats it for the firecats hey? I figured they'd soldier on for another year or two. whats the plan for those airframes? sold? scrapped?

.

What's the disposable load with the Firecats? How does the 1820 powered machine compare with the turbine one?

Let's tidy up some rumours here:

The new Conair Electra is not the old green & white Lynden hulk sitting at YXX east of the Cascade hangar. That will never fly again, and any worthy parts have long been stripped from the airframe.
Conair used to operate an Electra - true - but sold it Air Spray about a decade ago. It was assigned number 453 when with Conair; but is currently Tanker 487 (a spare machine with a 12-door compartmented tank not assigned to contract). Tanker 488 was destroyed in a hangar fire in Red Deer a few years ago.
Sadly, that is indeed 'it' for the Firecats in BC, effective immediately. Conair operates three in the Yukon. None operate in Saskatchewan. A moment of silence if you will. Actually, compared to the old radial Wrights, it may be a summer of comparative silence...
The load of the Conair Firecats is about 800 USG, or 3300 litres. The piston airplane is slower and carries less than the turbine version, but no agency in Canada is/was willing or able to pay the price of the converted machine. The sole customer was France.
'fireflyer' made a correct post. No word on exactly where the Electra will be based, but YXX is a safe bet. If there were better base infrastructure in YBL, it would ideally go there.
Conair may be sticking with the 580s (for now), but they have indeed had troubles. But so have the 188s. Neither airplane has reliably delivered (endurance and/or speed and/or payload) as promised according to the contracts. Close, mind you...but not quite all the way there...

Why aren't the Firecats being used anymore?

I understand Saskatchewan is still operating the Trackers for awhile yet.... but I also heard the US company that rebuilds the engines closed up shop.

Assumably, with the absence of 2-3 firecats from CYKA for 2010, it would be a more sensible location to base the L-188.. of course assuming they don't send their entire fleet of AT802's and Firebosses to compliment the 2 that were here in 2009.
CYKA was the busiest airport in Canada, yes, that's right...THE BUSIEST (even more movements than YYZ!!)..for a couple of days in August last year with the airtanker/helicopter activity.

Oldfartus wrote:Why aren't the Firecats being used anymore?

The transition from 'old' to 'new' i guess. Or to be more accurate, the transition to 'bigger', as the Convairs & Electras are no newer than the Firecats (ex-Trackers) they replace.
Agency staffers and the operator mention the increasing maintenance concerns, the decreased availability of avgas, and the need to 'modernize' the fleets. Personally, I think the Firecat was a fantastic all-around airtanker that is unmatched for its ability to concentrate a load of product into a heavy fuel canopy (the DC-6 of course being the all-time champion in that regard). The BC fleet has now been reduced by about a thousand litres of total carrying capacity (no big deal) and three airplanes, meaning decreased flexibility during times where multiple simultaneous starts demand every airtanker in the fleet.

There were terms in the new contracts allowing for a phased transition from the Firecats to a newer airtanker model over several years, but with the arrival of a new Electra, that transition can occur over this winter in time for the beginning of the 2010 fire season.

DHC5 wrote:Assumably, with the absence of 2-3 firecats from CYKA for 2010, it would be a more sensible location to base the L-188.. of course assuming they don't send their entire fleet of AT802's and Firebosses to compliment the 2 that were here in 2009.

Kamloops had a group of four (2 Firecats + 2 802s) based there for the past several years. BC has never had a contract group of Fireboss aircraft (a single machine was trialed in 2003 and a group was borrowed from Alberta and based in Salmon Arm in 2009). No official word yet on where any airtankers will be based this coming summer, but consider it a 'snowball's chance' that Kamloops will be without a group. I anticipate that YKA will see a group of 4 AT-802s with -67F engines and all or at least some equipped with the newest iteration of the retardant tank. That makes the most sense in terms of fleet placement anyway, and allows the continued use of a couple of the smaller interior bases too small for 580s and 188s. The operators should know by February.
Politically, the coast region will require a group based there, and I can't think of a better location for this new Electra with the 12-door tank (big punch for big trees). YXX allows easy proximity to coastal and canyon/southern interior fires and has the benefit of being a 4-minute taxi from the hangar if teething problems occur with the new airplane. Also, the base can be brought into play more often now that IFR concerns west of the mtns won't be stranding the Electra as they did the Firecats on many days.

CYKA was the busiest airport in Canada, yes, that's right...THE BUSIEST (even more movements than YYZ!!)..for a couple of days in August last year with the airtanker/helicopter activity.

Hopefully the recent runway lengthening and 08 threshold turnaround will ease delays during those busy spikes of fire traffic during most summers.

The four FireCat/Aerostar group previously based at YXX will be replaced by a single L-188/TC690 group with a yet to be named home base. The two CV580/TC690(no more Aerostars)x2 groups are back. The previous YKA two FireCat/two AT802/Aerostar group will be a four AT802/Aerostar group with a yet to be named base. I think there is basing decisions yet to be made and I am sure there will be a few changes.

FF

threepoint wrote:Hopefully the recent runway lengthening and 08 threshold turnaround will ease delays during those busy spikes of fire traffic during most summers.

Yes, taxiways Foxtrot and Golf on the north side of threshold 08 would have no problem handling 2 CV580 and 2 802's all at the same time.

threepoint wrote:I anticipate that YKA will see a group of 4 AT-802s with -67F engines

God I hope not!

threepoint wrote:consider it a 'snowball's chance' that Kamloops will be without a group.

One would think so..being it is, from what I understand, the primary P.A.T. with a huge renovation just being completed..would be a complete waste of taxpayer $...lol.. not to mention a huge investment by some suppliers to support more than just 4 local AT802's...
Was hoping they would have "disposed" of the 802's after the few incidents they have had in the last few years...just hope they dont have anymore and take out the new ILS antenna's on the end of 26 if they do wind up here

Have to say ...Gonna miss the sound of them thar Firecats launching... and what is the word on the flight crews who were flying the firecats...lay off, or reassigned??

What's been the problem with the 802's?

WRT^:
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=56571&hilit=Conair+Crash

and
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=54847

Those are two. IIRC, there was a third, but not sure.

AFAIK, #2 was fuel starvation, brought about by a 'funny' fuel system, and #1 was finger trouble...

DHC5 wrote: God I hope not!

threepoint wrote:consider it a 'snowball's chance' that Kamloops will be without a group.

One would think so..being it is, from what I understand, the primary P.A.T. with a huge renovation just being completed..would be a complete waste of taxpayer $...lol.. not to mention a huge investment by some suppliers to support more than just 4 local AT802's...
Was hoping they would have "disposed" of the 802's after the few incidents they have had in the last few years...just hope they dont have anymore and take out the new ILS antenna's on the end of 26 if they do wind up here

Have to say ...Gonna miss the sound of them thar Firecats launching... and what is the word on the flight crews who were flying the firecats...lay off, or reassigned??

The 802s are the only airtanker that can - day after day - deliver exactly as promised in the contract specs. Many do not like them because of their perception of being too slow or too small. Neither is true. For what it's worth, the best BC base for the 802s would be either Kamloops or Penticton. We can assume Penticton is a lock for the same CV-580 group returning (with an upgrade of birddog from PA-60 to TC-690). But the cards may play out so that the 802s go north. In discussions as we speak.
The building renovation has nothing to do with fleet basing decisions. It may as well be in Mongolia, as long as they have high-speed internet access. As far as being a waste of taxpayer's money - well, many are wondering just what the renovations will do in terms of increased efficiency or operational cost reduction. The renos had little to do with the airtanker program, and more for the operational fire manager types.
By "some suppliers" one can assume you're referring to Shell? That would be the only net 'loser' in such a scenario, but only when compared to supporting the fuel needs of an Electra. 4 new 802s will not use much less fuel than last year's 2 802s + 2 Firectas, so no appreciable business is being taken away. When Kamloops gets busy, thirsty airplanes are imported, and they will continue to require lotsa fuel.
The 802s are here (in the industry) to stay. They have had one accident (mechanical) in Kamloops in the 14 years they've been flying in BC. Other incidents have been so infrequent as to be irrelevant...no more so than any other type of airplane. Two notable ones were preventable pilot mistakes.
We will all miss the sound of the Firecats. No argument possible on that front. As for the pilots? They still hold their (very) senior positions within the company and will bid whatever equipment they are qualified to fly. It may result in a shuffle of a position or two, but no real change. Same faces different bases.

North Shore wrote: Those are two. IIRC, there was a third, but not sure.

AFAIK, #2 was fuel starvation, brought about by a 'funny' fuel system, and #1 was finger trouble...

Correct on both counts. The third of the past summer was an intentional gear-up landing on the runway in ZAM following a complete electrical failure and no real way of positively determining the position of the gear. The pilot made a good series of decisions and the damage was minimal. Ironically it happened very soon after the gear down landing in the lake. The airplane was flown back to the hangar, repaired and returned to service. All three incidents were Fireboss machines.

This can't be!! Are you trying to say that the BC Forest Service does not determine it's aerial fire fighting requirements for the province based on local fuel providers wishes for more business!? I'll be damned, and to imagine that someone would actually post that a few people should benefit while the masses are neglected...that is if you believe that the Govt are making the proper decisions which I do. AT-802s where the valley bottom/fast spreading/high population hazards are and the big stuff where longer dispatches(100 nm) are more prevalent.

Any word if the Firecats/Trackers are being put up for sale any time soon?

Unlikely the S2F will hit the market at all. Conairs m.o. has been to remove retired Air Tankers (and some Bird Dog aircraft) from airworthiness status. Some may continue to be maintained as spare for existing contracts, some may go to museums or maintenance schools for static purposes, some may get the big chop/rot in the yard. This is not the last of the FireCats as Yukon has years left on their newest contract for Cats and DC-6 and they will see service on export in BC as per usual.

FF

matt foley wrote: AT-802s where the valley bottom/fast spreading/high population hazards are and the big stuff where longer dispatches(100 nm) are more prevalent.

You betcha. Great machines for quick close-in dispatchs, perfect for the lighter fuels, can use the smaller bases (YRV, YCP) and can land fully loaded following the numerous false alarms and no-action missions. Having said that, they're now the only BC airtankers that can use the bases at YYE and AP6, so a northern posting would not be out of the realm of possibility. Nor would a temporary posting at a non-traditional base (YQZ or ZML perhaps?) while the base at YWL is closed for renos this spring.

Welll, I have reason to believe the L-188 is definitely being dispatched to CYKA for the summer, so we'll see who was right in about 10 weeks..

Happy Flyin!

DHC5 wrote:Welll, I have reason to believe the L-188 is definitely being dispatched to CYKA for the summer, so we'll see who was right in about 10 weeks..

Happy Flyin!

I suspect you may be right. But it may be painted yellow. We'll find out (officially) by late Feb.