Another Olympic Meeting

[MichaelP]

I'm just out of another Olympic Meeting with regard to the restrictions here.

My conclusion is that the Olympics are being used by several agencies to test their theories and to learn something.
This has little or nothing to do with security since a small aircraft is extremely low risk when compared perhaps with a lorry filled with TNT!
If there was a genuine threat then vehicle traffic should be restricted and searched.

During the 1999/2000 New Year, vehicle traffic was restricted into Vancouver. Was the threat level higher then?

The flight restrictions, inspection requirements, and flight authorisation procedures are a good way to reduce the traffic and make ATC's life easier with the expected amount of incoming traffic to airspace that is already too complicated.
If we who are based in the Vancouver area make mistakes then visitors from elsewhere are bound to make them too.
If you make it awkward for people to fly by imposing restrictions in the name of Security then you reduce traffic.

This is also a way of testing systems and training training people in security measures that could be used in the future.

I wonder what the conclusions from these heavy handed actions will be used for in the future.

[Northern Skies]

The question to be asked is, who are the terrorists? That word gets thown around a lot. Tyrant bureaucrats or liars with cameras are the ones who can do the worst damage.

[modi13]

During the 1999/2000 New Year, vehicle traffic was restricted into Vancouver. Was the threat level higher then?

Yes; see Ahmed Ressam.
Do you honestly believe that they're implementing these security measures specifically to disrupt the lives of students, instructors, and private pilots? They're performing their due-diligence; it might not be sufficient to stop all threats, but at least they can say that they did everything reasonable, and then some, to mitigate the risk.
Flying is a privelege, not a right, and you aren't even being prevented from flying. Transport Canada owns the air above us, and they decide whether we're allowed to use it. They can create CYRs wherever they deem it necessary, for any purpose related to the safety of the public or pilots. The only reason you're complaining and accusing the RCMP of infringing on your rights is because it directly affects you; you don't do the same when TC restricts your freedom to fly through the mountains northeast of Comox. The restrictions in place are not significantly different than those for crossing the border, with security inspections in place of customs.
I see an opportunity for instructors in all this: since students have to go to YXX or YYJ before they can go solo, the instructor gets time they otherwise wouldn't have if they simply signed off the solo. Granted, that will cost the student more, but I intend to get my students finished well within the minimum time requirements. 45 hours are 45 hours, and if they finish all the other requirements at 40 hours instead of 35 because of some extra dual, it shouldn't have too much of a negative impact.

[Northern Skies]

Transport Canada owns the air above us, and they decide whether we're allowed to use it.

NO

They don't.

The air above us belongs to no one.

But, we enforce a border that, during peace, is not infringed upon because others reciprocate with the wish that their own borders are respected, as a strategic defensive measure to protect their sovereignty.

And internally, we appoint transport canada to ensure that those flying within that airspace follow conventions to respect each other's safety and the safety of those on the ground, and we expect them to do so with fairness and objectivity. TC works for, and is ultimately accountable to, the citizens of canada. Never forget that.

[Cat Driver]

modi13 I take it you are are comfortable with a state that rules you through fear and restricting your movements all for some games being played for two weeks?

Where would you draw the line, when some people have to wear a yellow star?

[loadshed]

some interesting articles related to the subject:
(dead links)

[V1 Rotate]

It is a Brave New World we live in. Ruled by manufactured fear and worry. The average person bears the cost of building the infrastructure and then securing it for the elites that will enjoy the spectacle of doped up "athletes" making money for them. Make no mistake, restricting travel and access to transportation is just one more way control the masses. It is without a doubt an infringement on our freedoms.

15 500 security personell in the area for the duration of the "games" Sickening and ridiculous.

[Doc]

The Olympics cost (give or take) $650,000 per athlete. Somehow that seems like pissing money into the wind, from where I sit.
Terror, or the "threat" of terror is "manufactured by the government (most notably the American government) who "allow" just enough "terror" to happen to maintain a level of State manufactured "fear" within the citizenry, so they will have sufficient fear to buy all the crap about terror. Control through a perceived threat of terror. The church has been playing the same game for centuries. By "putting the FEAR of GOD" into parishioners, the church is able to "control" their sheep....but hey, what would I know?

[Northern Skies]

but hey, what would I know?

The truth.

For some, the truth hurts.

[modi13]

Transport Canada "owns" the sky in the same way the Ministry of Transportation "owns" the roads: they belong to the people, but the government makes the laws, builds the roads, and decides who gets to use them. The Olympic restrictions are no different than introducing graduated licencing; it might reduce the freedom of some individuals, but it's done in the name of safety. The only difference between the Olympic restrictions and graduated licencing is that the restrictions are temporary.
I'm affected by the Olympics as much as anyone, if not moreso, but rather than whining on an internet forum I'm making the best of the situation. Change is inevitable, especially in aviation, and if you can't adapt you shouldn't expect to survive. How many of you who are complaining about this complained when the restrictions were applied around Kananaskis (and how many of these "security measures that could be used in the future" have actually been applied since?) or when a CYR is created which restricts your freedom to fly through a portion of the mountains? It's outright hypocrisy. The fact that none of you have actually taken action against this violation of your "rights" indicates that this has nothing to do with liberty: you're upset because you're being temporarily inconvienced.
The rhetoric that's being spewed here is reminiscent of that thrown out by neocons and libertarians who claim that Obama is turning the US into a fascist state. It merely shows that none of you have any appreciation for what totalitarianism or police states really are. The restrictions are nothing more than the RCMP covering their asses, and have nothing to do with some kind of conspiracy for the police to take over the country. I don't see how having to go through metal detectors when flying into or out of Boundary Bay is ruling through fear, when it's one of the realities of flying commercially. And drawing a connection between filing flight plans and Nazism is simply childish; Godwin's Law truly is at work today.

[V1 Rotate]

The rhetoric that's being spewed here is reminiscent of that thrown out by neocons and libertarians who claim that Obama is turning the US into a fascist state. It merely shows that none of you have any appreciation for what totalitarianism or police states really are. The restrictions are nothing more than the RCMP covering their asses, and have nothing to do with some kind of conspiracy for the police to take over the country.

Neocons and Libertarians are the "Right" and so is Fascism. They would have a wet dream if it were any more fascist than it already is. They (neocons) worry about the US becoming socialist. Yeah right; it's corporatist (a type of fascism) largely due to the huge military-industrial complex at play. The same complex that lobbies the government to buy their usually unnecessary equipment. The same complex that owns the media that tells you to be afraid. The corporations run the government, the government runs the people. It should be vice-verca, don't you think?

But I guess someone that does not know now their political left from their political right probably doesn't even have an opinion on my above question.

[modi13]

The rhetoric that's being spewed here is reminiscent of that thrown out by neocons and libertarians who claim that Obama is turning the US into a fascist state. It merely shows that none of you have any appreciation for what totalitarianism or police states really are. The restrictions are nothing more than the RCMP covering their asses, and have nothing to do with some kind of conspiracy for the police to take over the country.

Neocons and Libertarians are the "Right" and so is Fascism. They would have a wet dream if it were any more fascist than it already is. They (neocons) worry about the US becoming socialist. Yeah right; it's corporatist (a type of fascism) largely due to the huge military-industrial complex at play. The same complex that lobbies the government to buy their usually unnecessary equipment. The same complex that owns the media that tells you to be afraid. The corporations run the government, the government runs the people. It should be vice-verca, don't you think?

But I guess someone that does not know now their political left from their political right probably doesn't even have an opinion on my above question.

When did I state my political opinion? The fact that the neocons and libertarians believe Obama is a fascist, and at the same time a socialist, is one of the great ironies of modern politics. After some of the posts here, though, I wouldn't expect many to understand the difference.

[Cat Driver]

It merely shows that none of you have any appreciation for what totalitarianism or police states really are

Really, none of us?

I have flown in so many countries that are run by tyrants I have to sit and think to remember them all.

I also flew for the television industry filming in countries in civil war and seen just about every atrocity imaginable including people being beheaded in public.

And you are insinuating none of us understand human nature and are unable to identify over reaction by a government?

Tell us about your background so we can debate this a little deeper modi13.

[Apollo]

Bah Humbug to all of this BS.

You know what - I'm going to go see a few events during the Olympics, and I'm going to be happy that I'm there. I LOVE the country I live in, and am a citizen of. Sure, it's not perfect, but you know what - nowhere is, really. Deal with it. Try to change it, but just bitching about it on an online forum isn't going to get you anywhere.

Yeah, sure we could have spent the VANOC money elsewhere - there's always going to be coulda-woulda-shouldas, but remember you elected your officials - if you don't like what they're doing, don't vote for them again. I honestly wonder how many of the people here actually vote. If you don't vote, then honestly, you don't have a say, and don't have any legs to stand on to say what is wrong with this country - because you pissed your chance to change it away.

I know I just went on a bit of a tirade, but it pisses me off to see the constant bitching about the "fear state" and "ruling by fear." Honestly - Canada is NOT ruled by fear. I can speak my mind whenever I so choose, and I'm not going to "dissapear" or die for it. I am the first of my family to join the ranks of aviators - just because I may not have come from a particularly affluent background did not dictate the terms of my career. There are plenty of places in the world where I would much rather not live - and although many of you may think so, Canada is not one of them.

[. ._]

I wanna slide down a hill or skate around a circle to make McDonald's richer.

[modi13]

Bah Humbug to all of this BS.

You know what - I'm going to go see a few events during the Olympics, and I'm going to be happy that I'm there. I LOVE the country I live in, and am a citizen of. Sure, it's not perfect, but you know what - nowhere is, really. Deal with it. Try to change it, but just bitching about it on an online forum isn't going to get you anywhere.

Yeah, sure we could have spent the VANOC money elsewhere - there's always going to be coulda-woulda-shouldas, but remember you elected your officials - if you don't like what they're doing, don't vote for them again. I honestly wonder how many of the people here actually vote. If you don't vote, then honestly, you don't have a say, and don't have any legs to stand on to say what is wrong with this country - because you pissed your chance to change it away.

I know I just went on a bit of a tirade, but it pisses me off to see the constant bitching about the "fear state" and "ruling by fear." Honestly - Canada is NOT ruled by fear. I can speak my mind whenever I so choose, and I'm not going to "dissapear" or die for it. I am the first of my family to join the ranks of aviators - just because I may not have come from a particularly affluent background did not dictate the terms of my career. There are plenty of places in the world where I would much rather not live - and although many of you may think so, Canada is not one of them.

+1
I'm a former member of the Canadian Forces, where I experienced true authoritarianism and abuse of power; I voluntarily gave up my rights, so I can tell you that doing a bit of extra paperwork for a couple of months is far from a takeover of the state by the police. I joined to protect Canadian values and freedoms, and if I thought there were an infringement on my liberty I'd be the first to take action. My brother's a member of the RCMP, and a large number of my friends from the CF are directly involved in the security operations, so I know first-hand that there is no grand conspiracy to put everyone in prison camps via metal detectors at airports. And if you think the military isn't a real dictatorship, I lived in the Middle East for two years, where the police arrest first, deport second, and don't bother asking any questions. That anyone would equate not being allowed to fly point-to-point within 30 NM of YVR with anything done by the Nazis indicates that either they can't identify overreaction by the government, or that they're just being offensive. It's not an argument, it's a logical fallacy; it's no different than retorting with an insult. If anyone is overreacting, it isn't our government...

[wallypilot]

Bah Humbug to all of this BS.

You know what - I'm going to go see a few events during the Olympics, and I'm going to be happy that I'm there. I LOVE the country I live in, and am a citizen of. Sure, it's not perfect, but you know what - nowhere is, really. Deal with it. Try to change it, but just bitching about it on an online forum isn't going to get you anywhere.

Yeah, sure we could have spent the VANOC money elsewhere - there's always going to be coulda-woulda-shouldas, but remember you elected your officials - if you don't like what they're doing, don't vote for them again. I honestly wonder how many of the people here actually vote. If you don't vote, then honestly, you don't have a say, and don't have any legs to stand on to say what is wrong with this country - because you pissed your chance to change it away.

First of all, the people I voted for aren't running things. Secondly, see if you feel the same way if the olympics were costing you $10,000 out of your own pocket. Yes, this is how much it is costing me and the mrs' company because we will have no work for the month of february directly because of the olympics. and if that's not bad enough, they didn't tell us until 10 days ago that the activity that is our bread and butter will be shut down in vancouver for the month, meaning we have no income, but still have to pay our fixed operating costs of $10k. At the very least, they could have told us a year ago that we wouldn't have the ability to generate revenue. I used to be ambivalent, maybe a touch positive about the games. Now, I just realise it's big business making big money for corrupt people. it has lost all the honour and purity it once had in decades past. THe olympics is a big business moving from city to city every 2 years making money off tax payers and volunteers(free labour....isn't this something that gets a lot of flack here on avcanada?). don't kid yourselves. It's not about the atheltes anymore.

However, I agree that the fear thing is overblown. bunch of folks with too much time on their hands.

[Apollo]

First of all, the people I voted for aren't running things. Secondly, see if you feel the same way if the olympics were costing you $10,000 out of your own pocket. Yes, this is how much it is costing me and the mrs' company because we will have no work for the month of february directly because of the olympics. and if that's not bad enough, they didn't tell us until 10 days ago that the activity that is our bread and butter will be shut down in vancouver for the month, meaning we have no income, but still have to pay our fixed operating costs of $10k. At the very least, they could have told us a year ago that we wouldn't have the ability to generate revenue. I used to be ambivalent, maybe a touch positive about the games. Now, I just realise it's big business making big money for corrupt people. it has lost all the honour and purity it once had in decades past. THe olympics is a big business moving from city to city every 2 years making money off tax payers and volunteers(free labour....isn't this something that gets a lot of flack here on avcanada?). don't kid yourselves. It's not about the atheltes anymore.

However, I agree that the fear thing is overblown. bunch of folks with too much time on their hands.

Fair enough that you didn't vote the liberals into provincial, or conservatives into federal government. It just rubs me the wrong way when people say "Government sucks, they screw everything up, they're worthless and a waste of time" when they were the ones who put their X on that particular box, or worse even, didn't even vote at all.

I know the feeling Wally - I'm laid off, the Olympics being one of the many reasons given. I'm making 1/2-1/4 of what I used to make, working along side ex-cons and druggies. I wake up everyday hating my job, and tired to boot because to make ends meet, I've got to work ridiculous hours, for ridiculous pay - over all three shifts. 18-20 hour work days are not unusual for me unfortunately.

I'm there for the athletes, for the sports. I'm going to see the best of the best, the cream of the crop - if I have to go through a little extra security, oh well. How often do you get to see the top international athletes compete in person? I know I'll be swelling with pride when I see our athletes enter BC place, the Maple Leaf waving in front of them, and you're damned right that I'm going to cheer for all that I can when I'm watching our athletes compete.

[Apollo]

modi13 I take it you are are comfortable with a state that rules you through fear and restricting your movements all for some games being played for two weeks?

Where would you draw the line, when some people have to wear a yellow star?

Seriously Cat... You're going to compare the Canadian Government to the Third Reich? Seriously? I have a tremendous amount of respect for what you have done, and what you have achieved, but man... Seriously?

[crazy_aviator]

okay, so we hear the complaints about the taxpayers being shafted with legacy costs, venues getting freebies ( ski resorts) corupt politics concerning the olympics, overreaction for legal protection by various agencies , Escessive costs for the average viewer to see the games and favouritism, BUT has ANYONE taken the time to think about the athletes themseves,,they have got to be the most selfish, self centred, egocentric , proud group of misfits on the planet today !!! And what,,,we go and worship them ? no different than a bunch of misfit movie celebrities walking the red carpet at self gratification awards venues, with the idolater groupies lapping up every second of on-stage pukulescence !!! (okay, maybe my words are a little strong)

[bandaid]

Cat, check your PM's.
I am of the mind that the Olympics is a very expensive party for politicians and elite athletes. Gordo and his gang are being bullied around the VANOC and the IOC and making decisions to keep these people happy while ignoring collective bargaining rights.
The Premier and the MLA's have opted to forgo their yearly COLA increases due to these tough economic times, how magnamonous considering that last year was one of the first years in recent memory where the cost of living was actually down a little.
The Olympic legacy will live on in B.C. for generations, that's how long it will take to pay it off.

[Cat Driver]

On the face of it my statement looks to be radical and an over statement.

I grew up in Windsor Ont. and considered Detroit and the USA to be basically the same place so am quite pro USA......

.....until I went through the jaws of Homeland Security in the USA when delivering an airplane from Europe to the USA, the experience was sobering and expensive and it took two days to get the airplane and my crew released .

Having dealt with some of the most brutal regimes on the planet my introduction and to and my experience with Homeland Security was to say the least sobering and fearful.

To give you a better grasp of what I am alluding to have a look at the Patriot Act in the USA then get back to me and let me know if you want to go that route here in Canada.

[MichaelP]

Read my post properly... I wonder how many pass their exams these days (RTFQ twice!), it's the same thing.

The security for these games could equally have been assured by the use of TFR's as are used in the USA.

I don't have a problem with being restricted from flying over certain areas where games are being held but none of these areas is affected by the current procedures at Boundary Bay Airport.

The King George, Nickl, and even the Alex Fraser departures assure that no one flying in and out of CZBB comes close to any of the venues.
A TFR over the Richmond Oval could remove the possibility of overflying CYVR and that would not matter to most.
You could put an exclusion zone over Vancouver as there is over London and Washington and that wouldn't matter.

Glen Valley is miles away from any of the venues, if a kamikaze student prangs in there doing a forced landing would a VIP get hurt??? Unlikely.

My point is that these restrictions are expensive and unnecessary.

By all means focus security on where it's necessary. Drawing arbitrary circles and colouring them red is well over the top.

So I am not against security.
But I am for efficiency and logic.

I maintain that there's more non security related reasons to this business than actual response to a threat.
I maintain that we show Canada in a very bad light when people see how freedoms can be removed in the same way as in their own police states perhaps.
This should be an opportunity for all flying operators to show off British Columbia to visitors... Harbour Air, Baxter Air, and the flying schools should be allowed to show visitors this beautiful place from the air.

[Carrier]

Quote: "I'm just out of another Olympic Meeting with regard to the restrictions here."
What was the purpose of the meeting? Was it to remove or substantially modify the airspace impositions. Was payment of full compensation to all those affected discussed?

MichaelP, I again ask you the questions that you did not answer on the other thread. Have you and all the others affected asked your paid representative MP(s) and MLA(s) to help and what have been their responses?

How many of the other posters on here have contacted their representatives? This issue does not affect just those directly employed in aviation such as pilots, engineers, office staff, etc. It also applies to companies that supply the aviation industry such as Shell and Esso. It also affects the dependants of employees. Have your dependants and friends also contacted the politicians?

This issue should be the subject of non-stop calls to BC's famous open line shows. Do they still exist? Is BC aviation arranging a calling campaign? The outrageous impositions should either be removed or full and proper compensation paid to all those in any way affected. Such compensation should come from the participants, organisers and sponsors and NOT from taxpayers.

It's no good just whining on an aviation bulletin board that most politicians and bureaucrats know nothing about, let alone read. The alphabet groups in the USA are so effective because the majority of their members and friends all work together and bombard their representatives with faxes, emails, telephone calls and letters and demand action. It seems that Canadians either cannot be bothered or just leave it to a few and then wonder why nothing happens!

Last week I received a promotion from Tourism BC. This was paid for by BC taxpayers to promote tourism in BC. As has been pointed out, aviation should be part of this. Visitors to Vancouver during the games should be encouraged to take sight-seeing flights and to visit other parts of the province as well. The organisers and their cronies such as TC should be working together with Tourism BC to promote aviation. The Games should result in INCREASED aviation activity in the Lower Mainland and to surrounding areas. Instead the Olympic Shames organisers and their cronies are going out of their way to damage BC businesses and jobs, which is just what the terrorists want. Whose side are they on? Have you all asked Tourism BC what it is doing with your tax dollars to promote tourist flights and air transport for add-on visits to other parts of BC and even other provinces during the games?

Have others been asked to help? Are the games participants so selfish that they are ready to have their party at the expense of ordinary working citizens? If the Canadian men's ice hockey team refuses to play unless BC aviation is treated fairly perhaps the Gauleiters will get the message. It would be interesting to see if Canadian athletes are prepared to stand up for ordinary Canadians who support them with so many tax dollars.

[MichaelP]

MichaelP, I again ask you the questions that you did not answer on the other thread. Have you and all the others affected asked your paid representative MP(s) and MLA(s) to help and what have been their responses?

The straight answer to this is no.
I do not have the right to vote in Canada and so I'm not a participant in the decision processes here.

From what I have read in the media, seen on the news, and have heard from people here, there's very little anyone thinks can be done about anything.
Canadian governments ride over the people, they are always minority governments as there's clearly no definate leadership in this country, and then there's the police.
The police themselves keep coming in for criticism again and again these days.
So I think that Canadians tend to accept whatever the authorities put upon them...

Pat Kennedy at PFC has worked tirelessly on the VanOC - right to fly issue and she has not had the amount of support from the other operators at CZBB that she deserved.
Not even from my school
I apologise for this.

It's unfortunate that aviation in Canada is often composed of disparate people and organisations. (Please look up disparate if you think I've spelled it wrong).
We don't all get along.

As a foreigner I can only write from the outside; suggest on here that things might not be entirely legal, and that there are other things going on in the background.

Like town planning for the Lower Mainland, I don't think there's much competence around here.
It was too easy for them to blot out large areas of airspace rather than to have an efficient plan with the minimum inconvenience to all established airspace users.

Yes, perhaps I'm a cop-out so to speak, I've fought enough battles in the past, but I have an opinion and I'm sharing it with you.