A new, new low

[Big Pistons Forever]

From the Guardian Aerospace job add

Job Description: We are looking for a responsible person who can act as CFI at a new satellite base doing Flight Training and Charter Flights. Must be willing to sign three 1-year contracts. First 2 years for Instructing and Charter Work, 3rd year for Navajo. After every year you can leave or sign for another year! But we would like to have people stay for 3 years total.

Salary: to be discussed
Closing Date: when position filled with a hard working pilot

WOW, at least the scumbags at Grondair don't require you to sign a contract of indentured servitude. This outfit does not need hard working pilots they just need really stupid ones

[linecrew]

What are they paying for that kind of unrealistic comitment expectation?

[Bede]

And what happens if you leave midway through the 1 year contract? Sounds to me like a strange training bond.

[FlaplessDork]

What are they paying for that kind of unrealistic comitment expectation?

I think they were advertising $12-15/hour for instructors before.

Rumours are things are getting better everywhere, and I wouldn't want to be locked into an instructing contract.

[Bede]

I actually worked with the guy who runs this place and he's a stand up guy. It could be that this is simply an employment contract (which is standard) but they guarantee you onto the PA31 on the 3rd year. I think we may be fearing the worst.

[linecrew]

I actually worked with the guy who runs this place and he's a stand up guy. It could be that this is simply an employment contract (which is standard) but they guarantee you onto the PA31 on the 3rd year. I think we may be fearing the worst.

This is the farthest thing from a standard employee contract after the expected 3 (!) years for just a frikin Navajo: "After every year you can leave or sign for another year!"

If you think that this is standard then hurry to make sure you're first in line.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I actually worked with the guy who runs this place and he's a stand up guy. It could be that this is simply an employment contract (which is standard) but they guarantee you onto the PA31 on the 3rd year. I think we may be fearing the worst.

In 23 + yrs of commercial flying I have never signed a contract which required me to remain in a job as a condition of employment. I am betting if this new base doesn't work out and is closed you will be layed off so fast your stuff will barely have time for one bounce in the company parking lot before you are hustled down the road...... but Guardian still expects you to sign away 3 yrs of your life

[Bede]

Having a term on the contract is standard outside of aviation. All the employer want to know is when they need to think about a replacement. I don't think you're committing 3 years, just 1 year at a time. Back when I flew ho's that's about how long it took me. I put in two years of instructing, than got on a Navajo. Basically I had around 1000-1500hrs by that time. I think that's reasonable- and safe.

There are a lot of horror stories in this business. I think our guard might be up prematurly.

[Captain Slog]

If you want someone to stay for three years make the pay and working conditions such that they want to stay for three years. Anything else is just folly and will not work no matter how many pieces of paper you have signed.

[Slats]

Seems to me like some people have a reading/comprehension problem. Nowhere in that do I read anything that says anything about a bond or a 3 year contract, rather a one year employment contract with the option of a one-year extension after both the first and second years. Pay/working conditions aside (since we don't know about them) it sounds like it could actually be a reasonably decent deal for some lower time pilot stuck in an instructing gig and looking for a way to move on while having some job security for some time. Guy/gal comes in signs on for a year (not at all unreasonable) does some instructing and charters. If they don't like it or want to move on, they can do so after a year. If it's a good gig, they sign on for another year (not at all unreasonable) and do some more instructing and charters. Again they can leave after that year or stay for a third year of Navajo flying. I fail to see what's so wrong with this arrangement? On the one hand, the candidate has the option to leave after every year, and on the other hand they have the promise of 3 years of job security if they want it along with guaranteed progression. Also the employer only has to worry about possibly replacing a pilot annually as opposed to continually. It's easy to say things like "Well pay better and people will stay" but it just ain't so in most entry level jobs. Very few pilots want to instruct on 172's their whole lives regardless of pay.
Is there really something horribly wrong with this, or am I the one with the reading/comprehension problem?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Seems to me like some people have a reading/comprehension problem. Nowhere in that do I read anything that says anything about a bond or a 3 year contract, rather a one year employment contract with the option of a one-year extension after both the first and second years. Pay/working conditions aside (since we don't know about them) it sounds like it could actually be a reasonably decent deal for some lower time pilot stuck in an instructing gig and looking for a way to move on while having some job security for some time. Guy/gal comes in signs on for a year (not at all unreasonable) does some instructing and charters. If they don't like it or want to move on, they can do so after a year. If it's a good gig, they sign on for another year (not at all unreasonable) and do some more instructing and charters. Again they can leave after that year or stay for a third year of Navajo flying. I fail to see what's so wrong with this arrangement? On the one hand, the candidate has the option to leave after every year, and on the other hand they have the promise of 3 years of job security if they want it along with guaranteed progression. Also the employer only has to worry about possibly replacing a pilot annually as opposed to continually. It's easy to say things like "Well pay better and people will stay" but it just ain't so in most entry level jobs. Very few pilots want to instruct on 172's their whole lives regardless of pay.
Is there really something horribly wrong with this, or am I the one with the reading/comprehension problem?

The only reason I can see for having an employment contract is for the employer to extract a penalty from the pilot for leaving early. Maybe I am being paranoid but I read this as a way to avoid having to be a decent employer because if you are 1 month in to the contract and your are getting treated like shit, you will have fewer options to leave. Even if it works out, you only have a job for one year so you had better suck up to the boss in month 11 so you get your contract renewed. So slats please explain to me how this is in any way advantageous for the employee ? From my point if view I see this as a another dimunition of pilot terms and conditions of employement. I do not think this is a practice that should be encouraged.

[. ._]

How about I get a job?

If I like it, I stay.

If it sucks, I leave and badmouth the employer with anyone who asks me.

"Why did you leave?"

"They paid me ten bucks an hour and wanted me to suck dick."

"You mean kiss the boss's ass? Suck up? Feed his ego? C'mon. That's the biz."

"NO! He wanted me to fellate him in the office."

"Oh...OK. Maybe I won't apply there."

But then, again, I'm not a working pilot. I just have self respect.

-istp

[linecrew]

Seems to me like some people have a reading/comprehension problem. Nowhere in that do I read anything that says anything about a bond or a 3 year contract, rather a one year employment contract with the option of a one-year extension after both the first and second years. Pay/working conditions aside (since we don't know about them) it sounds like it could actually be a reasonably decent deal for some lower time pilot stuck in an instructing gig and looking for a way to move on while having some job security for some time. Guy/gal comes in signs on for a year (not at all unreasonable) does some instructing and charters. If they don't like it or want to move on, they can do so after a year. If it's a good gig, they sign on for another year (not at all unreasonable) and do some more instructing and charters. Again they can leave after that year or stay for a third year of Navajo flying. I fail to see what's so wrong with this arrangement? On the one hand, the candidate has the option to leave after every year, and on the other hand they have the promise of 3 years of job security if they want it along with guaranteed progression. Also the employer only has to worry about possibly replacing a pilot annually as opposed to continually. It's easy to say things like "Well pay better and people will stay" but it just ain't so in most entry level jobs. Very few pilots want to instruct on 172's their whole lives regardless of pay.
Is there really something horribly wrong with this, or am I the one with the reading/comprehension problem?

If you read it like I did from the perspective of an up-and-coming commercial pilot, it is a minimum 3 year commitment if you want to get on the Navajo (the aircraft that matters most). You can get an instructing job anywhere so that is a moot point. If you want the Navajo time the post implies that you have to give them 3 years to EARN it. Then you have to commit to an entire year after the three years is up. Do some research into what has become the 'standard' and you'll see why this is so funny.

[Nark]

if you want to get on the Navajo (the aircraft that matters most). You can get an instructing job anywhere so that is a moot point. ...

I can see you have a case of the shiny jet syndrome.

Take it from me, chase the paycheck, not the airplane. You'll be much happier at the end of the day when you can afford Ichiban noodles, instead of top ramen.

[Big Pistons Forever]

My personal progression in aviation has had three steps

Start of my career = Chase the metal

Middle of my career = Chase the paycheck

Nearing the end of my career = Chase the lifestyle

I still love flying but at the end of the day it is still just a job. How you get to live your life is the only thing that matters

[iflyforpie]

Ahh yes... SJS




http://www.shinyjetsyndrome.com/

[Big Pistons Forever]

Ahh yes... SJS




http://www.shinyjetsyndrome.com/

Pie , You post some of the best stuff on Avcanada but this post raises you to a whole new level !

[Slats]

The only reason I can see for having an employment contract is for the employer to extract a penalty from the pilot for leaving early. Maybe I am being paranoid but I read this as a way to avoid having to be a decent employer because if you are 1 month in to the contract and your are getting treated like shit, you will have fewer options to leave.

I mean no offense, but I do feel that in this scenario you are being paranoid. I don't see this as a way for the employer to avoid having to be a decent one, because, lets face it, contract or no, if the boss is a tyrant or working conditions are terrible, the employee is going to walk. Assuming it is just a contract and not a bond, there is virtually no penalty for the employer to potentially extract. If they really wanted to waste their time, money and energy they could attempt to take the issue to court for breach of contract, but to what end? It's not worth it. Any potential monetary sum that they may get (which they probably wouldn't be awarded anyway) would be quite small and not be worth the time and effort spent.
Instead I see this as a way for the employer to have a little peace of mind for 12 months knowing that they have an agreement with the employee that if they both live up to their ends of the bargain they will have a mutually beneficial working relationship. Lets face it, most low time pilots flying light singles have shorter memories if they've been treated decently and have no problem leaving a good employer in the lurch when that $20k/yr right seat turbine job comes along so they can "live the dream." The instructing and even the Navajo are both stepping stones to most of them, that they would gladly leapfrog over if given the chance. Sure, shitty employers are a problem in the industry, but short-sighted, low-time pilots with no loyalty and who feel they are owed something without having to work for it are, in my opinion, just as detrimental to our industry.

Even if it works out, you only have a job for one year so you had better suck up to the boss in month 11 so you get your contract renewed. So slats please explain to me how this is in any way advantageous for the employee ? From my point if view I see this as a another dimunition of pilot terms and conditions of employement. I do not think this is a practice that should be encouraged.

I think it is advantageous for both, provided they both live up to their respective ends of the bargain. There is no need to suck up to the boss, only the need to do the job well. If a pilot does that, chances are very good the boss will want to keep them, as opposed to going through the process of hiring and training an unproven pilot. I think the contract is a way of laying it out in writing and ensuring that both parties are on the same page ahead of time and know what to expect from the other with no surprises along the way.

If you read it like I did from the perspective of an up-and-coming commercial pilot, it is a minimum 3 year commitment if you want to get on the Navajo (the aircraft that matters most). You can get an instructing job anywhere so that is a moot point. If you want the Navajo time the post implies that you have to give them 3 years to EARN it. Then you have to commit to an entire year after the three years is up. Do some research into what has become the 'standard' and you'll see why this is so funny.

As with most issues, you will have a fuller and better understanding of it if you look at it from both perspectives as opposed to just the one you are most familiar with. Also, careful reading of what is laid out helps; the ad specifically says that the Navajo flying occurs in the third year, not after the third year as you imply. And what is so wrong with "earning" something? Do you feel some sense of entitlement?
I'm not sure I follow what you mean with regards to me researching the "standard" in the industry. Could you elaborate?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Slats

Every good employer I know is able to keep their emploees the old fashioned way, by treating them decently. At the FTU level they also understand that a FI job is the bottom rung of the piloting profession and therefore expect flight Instructors to move on when a good opportunity presents itself. I got my first job as an Instructor filling an opening created by a fellow moving to a PA 31 job. and my position was in turn filled by a new FI when I moved up to PA 31 job. Since the company doesn't make any significant investment in the FI they hire they should understand that the statutory requirement of 2 weeks notice is all they are legitimately entitled to.

I say again: how does signing an employment contract in any way benfit the employee ?

BTW Slats do you work for or are in any way associated with Gaurdian ?

[Slats]

Nope, don't know who they are or anything about them. Just seems to me that people are assuming the worst for no reason.
I would think that having the terms of employment laid out in writing beforehand would be beneficial to the employee because they will know exactly what they are getting into, what is expected of them and what they can expect from the employer. (Although it doesn't always work that way, I suppose, as I have been burned by an employer despite having things laid out in writing.) Also, they know that if they choose to stay, they have guaranteed progression to valuable twin time. 2 years from 150 or 172 instructor to Navajo driver seems OK to me. On the flipside, if the employer doesn't live up to what they have outlined that they would provide, they then would have breached contract and the employee is free to leave. Seems very simple to me, the prospective employee is not being asked to sell their soul, just to resist "Shiny Jet Syndrome" for one year at the very least.

[Doc]

but Guardian still expects you to sign away 3 yrs of your life

I read it, you sign on for a year, then have a look at your priorities, and if you like what you see, sign on for another year. It gives both the employer and employee an "out" at the end of each year, if things aren't working out. But then, I do have a grasp of the English language....

[LousyFisherman]

And as a non-pilot I will not work for ANYONE unless they are willing to give me a written fixed term contract.
The contracts always include the terms under which either party can terminate them, usually 30 days
notice/penalty for either side in my case.

The fact that Guardian is willing to offer a contract is a good thing. Waste your time worrying about
the terms of the contract, and how to afford the lawyer to review the contract before you sign.

But of course, pilots are special, normal business operating principles don't apply to them

What is the difference between a pilot and the plane he/she flies?
The plane stops whining when it is on the ground!

LF

[linecrew]

if you want to get on the Navajo (the aircraft that matters most). You can get an instructing job anywhere so that is a moot point. ...

I can see you have a case of the shiny jet syndrome.

Take it from me, chase the paycheck, not the airplane. You'll be much happier at the end of the day when you can afford Ichiban noodles, instead of top ramen.

Actaully I do not fly for a commercial operator* so no...no shiny airplane anything. The twin time in the ho is worth more to most operators (especially upstream where one can maybe begin to make a living off of what they get paid) than the ability to fly a really super deluxe awesome slick as snot circuit. That's not to say that there is no whay to make a living otherwise...just for the average person starting off.


*I just enjoy stirring the pot on forums instead.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Doc and Slats

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. The most probable outcome IMO will be Joe pilot dutifully does his 2 years , goes to sign up for that 3 rd year all excited about the Ho job he has been waiting for...... and the boss says "Oh well we found a guy who allready has a Navajo PPC so we hired him to save on training costs. Thanks for the 2 years here and we are declining to sign your 3 rd contact... have a nice day and good luck !"

I could, maybe possibly, sort of, see a case for a employment contract which says "work for us for 2 years and we will guarantee you in writing we will provide you with a Navajo PPC within the 2 year period". However the employment contact as is presently configured puts all of the commitment on the employee with none on the employer for at least the first 2 years. I am honestly puzzled at how anybody could be in favour of this. I would also note that they are looking for a Class 3 FI which means the person they hire will have likely allready worked for the better part of a year as an instructor.....

[Cat Driver]

What aviation needs most is for companies and pilots to get past the who is going to be the fu.kee and who is going to be the fu.kor and concentrate on each party working together to make a profit without smashing up airplanes and injuring or killing the customers.

But I suppose that concept is to deep for this group.