Any YWG Centre/ARR Controllers in here.. a question for you.

[all4u]

Arriving from the North (YTH, YNE, YCR) airplanes are often redirected direct BIRLA, direct CYWG. Almost every time this happens to me we cross BIRLA with Centre and then make the right-hand turn to YWG. A few seconds later, "over to ARR 119.5." Then after checking in with ARR, "turn left heading 170."

It's a bit of a pet-peeve for me, since it happens every time. Is there no way around this so that we can avoid making unnecessary turns?

[Jerricho]

I can speak from the Arrival point of view.

As you know, BIRLA is about 40 miles north of Winnipeg, just outside of Terminal's airspace. We use a gates system into Winnipeg, which separates our inbound/outbound flow, and coming from the northwest (YTH/YNE/YCR) BIRLA dct YWG puts you in the north arriva gate (known as the GIMLI gate). There is another point to the east LOPGO which is can be used for the same purpose. The reason you're given this routing is there is a traffic flow departure gate (NORWAY HOUSE gate) that you're being routed around. Departures to YTH/YNE are given direct as they go out the departure gate.

Now to your question........: as you're hitting BIRLA, you're being handed off to Winnipeg Terminal/Arrival (35 miles from YWG). Depending upon the active runway determines what happens on first contact. You may be given direct the FACF for 18/13 or even 31 traffic dependent, or given a heading (as you mention, the 170 heading would probably be a right downwind heading for 31/36). Centre can't give you a heading as Arrival may decide they want to vector for the left downwind depending on traffic and this would piss everybody off even more. This isn't the first time I've heard this mentioned and I can see how it can be annoying as potentially you're making 3 turns in the space of a couple of miles.

As to how we get around it........leaving you on the BIRLA DCT YWG for a few miles would certainly alleviate the few seconds around the handoff time, but at some stage you're going to have to get a downwind heading. Sorry, it's not deliberate. If we get you before BIRLA it normally wouldn't be an issue.

(I've got a pretty Powerpoint presentation of the Gates system I could bore you to death with.........)

[all4u]

Thanks, I was wondering if ATC knew this was a concern for us. I understand that it just kind of works out that way. But can't ARR pass on to centre a second waypoint past BIRLA (like a waypoint on an arrival for one of the runways like 31 or 36; they are there, why can't we use them?)? Or maybe just moving BIRLA in 5-10 miles.

[Jerricho]

Moving BIRLA (and LOPGO) isn't such a bad idea......unfortunately there's a list of things that are to be changed over the next few months/years for all of Canada that would push it fairly far down the Totem Pole of Importance.

As to Arrival passing on a subsequent point to Center, this may sound a little like a dodge but we have an Agreement between Center and Terminal outlining how the gates are used to reduce the amount of co-ordination required, especially when there's a few of them pesky green Metros around. While I may like the sound of my own voice, I can't say the guy/gal on 118.0 wants to hear constant hotline calls.

[Donald]

This sort of thing is not limited to YWG either. Arriving at YEG from the north, the standard routing is ABENY-XD. When for example rwy 20 is in use, at ABENY you get a right turn, a handoff, then a left turn to a heading, followed by a turn to GABET. When it's quiet, and nothing is happening at YXD, you can get the turn to GABET prior to ABENY, which is always smoother.

[ei ei owe]

I can see how it can be annoying as potentially you're making 3 turns in the space of a couple of miles.

It's only annoying because the FO usually flying into YWG gets confused with all the vectored requests and sometimes ends up wanting to turn back north....