Canada, USA or Europe?

[bwilly]

Hey,

I posted this over at pprune, thought you guys would know better

So I need some advice,

I'm a Canadian, and I'm trying to evaluate whether to focus my flight training on Canada or Europe. I'll soon be married to a German, which will give me the right to live and work in Germany(though my German is awful). I've got just 20 hrs under my belt at the local FBO here in Canada, but I want to step up to a more professional, career-oriented school.

The question is, with the current and future job market of the industry, along with costs, should I train for that first job in Canada, or Europe? Should I go to the US and find a school which offers JAA training, or stick it out in Canada then try to convert afterwards. Its seems as though the job market is quite slim for low time pilots in Canada, with essentially on two big airlines in the country (Air Canada, WestJet).

Any advice, or recommendations for schools?

Thanks!

[Dagwood]

It's going to cost an arm and a leg to train in europe.

It's going to cost the other arm and leg to survive in the US on entry pilot wages.

Keep your limbs... stay in Canada.

my 2 cents.

[Cisbour]

I'm French, got my licences in France. I came here to fly, back home the job market is awful, stay where u are..
If u want to spend 70000 $ for a CPL/ MIFR and willing to pay 40 000$ for a type rating to apply for a job Europe is for you!

[bwilly]

Thanks for the replies guys,

I should clarify, I don't want to do all my training in Europe. I really don't feel like shelling out 40K for a type rating to fly in europe, is that normal over there? All those folks at Oxford and whatnot paying like 100K to hop in as a F/O with ryanair...wow

There are some schools in the Florida which offer JAA zero through frozen ATPL though. Without the type rating, its about the same price as the average flight college in Canada, except the ability to work on the side to pay the bills is limited, being Canadian. I don't think working an entry level flying job in the US is even possible without citizenship, except maybe instructing via the new F1 visa.

So more or less, I'm wondering if I should stay here, and tuff it out, or go to the states and obtain JAA there. Either way, I see myself having to move over to Germany eventually.

PS.. anyone ever apply for Lufthansa's cadet program?

[loopa]

Cisbour,

The industry was horrible no matter where you "were." The european industry is picking up. If you haven't noticed, there are numerous airlines hiring in EUROPE right now, as there are in Canada.

The idea behind Europe is that you don't waste time in a single engine aircraft. You do a program with a flight academy that is recognized by airlines. Once graduated, given that you're the material they're looking for, you're granted an interview. In some cases, people do their training at private school, shell out money for a type rating and wait for the airlines to look for a pilot with your type rating.

Lufthansa Cadet program is good, but I think you need to have excellent science and language related marks from High School, have a very good understanding of the English and German language, as well, fit the "profile" that represents Germany. Though they are becoming more multi cultural these days. A friend of mine is Armenian and is a F/O on their A340's. LFC is one of the toughest flight academy's in Europe, but rightfully so, one of the more prestigious ones. But that also has two ways of being perceived as. Depends what you consider prestigeous.

What you need to consider is that in Europe you're going to be an F/O for a very long time with either a huge bond to serve to or a massive debt to repay. I think it's normal for a 250 hour pilot to be an F/O for Speedbird (BA) for 7 years before they're considered for captain? Either way if you stay in Canada, it will take you that long to get to an airline seat.

So it all comes down to how hard you want to work, how much money you want to spend, and how much time you have in your life. I believe LFC doesn't recruit cadets above 27 years old.

[canadapilot924]

7 years to make captain doesn't sound too bad...i'm pretty sure you'll be right seat for that long at WJ, and that's even after joining with 4000+hrs!

[Cisbour]

Loopa,

I graduated from french national airline pilot course. For about 40 guys per year, the whole course is for free. If the job market wasn'tso awful I would've stayed home ! believe me all my fellow mates ar unemployed working in restaurants and hotels, I know how it works and know it is right now..It might be hiring at some places but each country tends to protect its own work force by engaging local guys..

And yes type rating is now common in each company..Getting paid 2000 $ after 100 000$ training fees without getting a chance of being reimboursed after that by the governement after afew years( which u fellow canadians get the chance to have): welcome to Europe. Also take into account the cost of life and you'll understand why Canada is a much better place to fly!

[Arian17]

Flight training and private flying is very expensive in Germany.
I think Canada is a much better place for flight training.

[J-Hunter]

k

[gaamin]

Another problem for low-time pilots looking for their first job in Europe is language. To get a job, not being proficient in one the official local languages is a big hurdle. Few countries are English-speaking, some languages are harder to learn than others depending on your first language.
Not that it's not doable, just that it's generally harder, more expensive and with less opportunities than Canada.
Also, isn't Europe going bankrupt soon?

[J-Hunter]

Another problem for low-time pilots looking for their first job in Europe is language. To get a job, not being proficient in one the official local languages is a big hurdle. Few countries are English-speaking, some languages are harder to learn than others depending on your first language.
Not that it's not doable, just that it's generally harder, more expensive and with less opportunities than Canada.
Also, isn't Europe going bankrupt soon?

Being a Canadian citizen I can freely say that Canada is a great place to be and I am going to stay here pretty much forever if life permits me to do so. However, english is the aviation standard language and that should be no hurdle for no pilot and no exceptions made here whatsoever. I've heard stories of French and Spanish pilots being turned back from english-speaking countries e.g USA because they had no idea what the ATC was saying which eventually got the flight restricted from the airspace and I figure you can deduct the rest. Let's not make this a language debate. I have heard of Portuguese, Spanish, Greek pilots, working in Western and especially Eastern Europe and they had always been accomodated in English and the workplace environment always functioned in english. Sure, some co-workers might speak the local language, but since when has piloting become restricted to the tip of our tongue?

[gaamin]

That's just the way it is for low-timers there. No offence. Probably different once you have enough hours though.

[Cisbour]

Gaamin is absolutely right..
For most eastern european countrie, very often you need that big shiny jet type rating with 500 hours on type, or speak the local language..Sometimes both. And the ide of paying your type rating before even applying to a job pisses me off..I'd rather fly some single engine and small twins for 5 years or more in Canada, making some useful ad priceless experience before aiming higher. It's just the way it goes..

[bwilly]

Right. Thanks everyone for the insight!

From weeks of reading, it seems like working Europe is more costly initially, but better for low timers. Question to anyone who is over there. I'll be able to work in Germany, but only Germany. Does that mean I can only fly within Germany, or only German registered aircraft?

Right now I think I will do the integrated course at moncton, then afterwards convert to JAA. Should I bother doing the IR in Canada? I hear its a pain to covert to JAA.

Moncton has a so-called ''frozen atpl''....good idea or waste of money?

Anyone know what MFC's CAE Global Academy connection refers to? Something to do with type ratings possibly? I noticed they have a brand new CAE DA-40 class cockpit FTD at MFC too