Multi Engin Time?

[Hoque]

Most of the job they are asking for 500 hr in twin in Canada, but do you build this time?? in State all you need MEI (Multi Engin Instructor Rating). Any idea how to build this 500 hr?
Thank you

[Invertago]

When applying for jobs that require 500multi, I just divide my single time in half

[Hedley]

I try to fly as little multi-engine as possible. I try to pass
multi-engine flights off to someone else whenever I can.

It's just not very much fun. If I'm going to open the
hangar doors, drag an aircraft out, go flying, refuel it,
hot start it, taxi it back to the hangar, open the hangar
doors, drag it back in again, then clean the bugs and
grease off it again ... I'd rather do it in something that's
fun to fly. But that's just me.

However, I will mention that I don't pass up on
Beech 18 stick time - even though it's multi-engine,
it's tailwheel, and it's a hoot! Given the chance I would
love to try taxiing a DC-3 some time, and given the weird
way my life keeps turning out, it's not improbable.

[Teeg]

there are 3 ways as i see it

a) buy a twin, build your hours
b) get that coveted ramp job where within 3mos to 3 years you will get a seat on a navajo
c) become an instructor, work your way up to becoming an MIFR instructor

this tends to be the way most pilots in canada, if not the world get there multi time.

if you, or anyone else, have another way, do tell.
T

[Hedley]

buy a twin, build your hours

I have wondered for years why a group of AvCan 250 hr
wonders didn't buy a little twin, and fly it continuously back
and forth across the country, dropping off new part owner
pilots and picking up others, while everyone was furiously
logging PIC and dual in it.

You could buy your share, get your 100 hrs multi, then sell
your share to the next 250 hr wonder.

No OC required, no AMO. And the time would be completely
legit.

[. ._]

Because it's too expensive. Mind you I haven't crunched the numbers. I'm just guessing.

[GoinNowhereFast]

Anybody want to start this with an Aztec Nomad on amphibs?

[Dagwood]

I'll open the floor with a $100/hr bid.

[Dave_oh]

You could get 2 birds stoned at once with that, multi AND float time....

[GoinNowhereFast]

I'll open the floor with a $100/hr bid.

Now we only need 4998 more people!

[Hedley]

Pulling numbers out of, er, the air ....

A twin comanche or piper apache or beech duchess or piper seminole ...

You will note that they are all four seat aircraft with little four-cyl
Lycomings on the wings for minimum fuel burn. You don't need big
six-cyl engines!

The problem with the twin comanche and piper apache is that they
are all so incredibly old. Unless they have had full refurbs - which
doesn't make any economic sense - they are going to be mostly
non-flying hangar queens until they are parted out.

Now onto the newer beech duchess or piper seminole ... these
unfortunately are in high demand as multi-engine trainers by
FTU's. Many of them have a LOT of hours on them! Such
is the market, with the high demand for multi hours.

Let's say you could actually buy something for $100K which
wasn't a piece of crap. Ten people buy in for $10K each
which is fully refunded when they sell their share later.
The cost per hour per pilot is $100/hr - that's with one
guy logging PIC, and one guy logging dual, which I think
is legal if the PIC has a flight instructor rating. That's
$200/hr for fuel and maintenance, which is in the ballpark.

So you put up $10k and $100/hr of multi time. Let's
say you fly 100hrs - 50 hrs dual (you're a slow learner
aye) and 50 hrs PIC. That would cost you an additional
$10k. Then, you sell your share for $10k and get your
original $10k back.

I am just making up numbers, but I am amazed someone
isn't doing this. It's even legal, I think. It's not a "commercial
air service", so no 703 OC. You don't need a 406 FTU OC,
or an AMO, or anything beyond a private C of R and an
annual C of A signed off by a shade-tree AME (not AMO).

For insurance, just go with the minimum legal liability
insurance. Hull in motion would probably double the
cost per hour, if you could get it at all. All you have
to do is ensure that the two pilots up front try to
remember to lower the gear.

Honest multi time for $100/hr. Heck, you can't rent
a buck fifty for that at an FTU.

[GoinNowhereFast]

So now somebody has built 100hrs multi time. They're sitting in the interview and they ask "so where did you get all this multi time come from?" I don't think the answer they're looking for is "ripping around everywhere boring holes in the sky". No commercial experience, no instructing, not firewatch, etc.

I remember being told at an interview not to go do a "50 hour commercial float course" because it should be the companies job to teach you how to fly their aircraft in their operation.

[Hedley]

where did you get all this multi time

Answer: well, I flew from Toronto to North Bay to Sault St
Marie, where we had to wait for 3 days for wx. Then Thunder
Bay, where the airplane broke and we had to get it fixed. Then
onto Dryden, Winnipeg, etc etc etc etc to BC up to Alaska
and then down to Mexico and then to the Bahamas ...

Fantastic, real world experience. As good as going around
the VOR in a hold 500 times with multi-students? I would
say MUCH better experience - cross-country as an aircraft
owner-operator.

Heck, you could probably do multi-ifr ratings to the part-owners
in it along the way. I think that would be legal, too. Heck,
you could probably even do multi ratings in it.

[Shiny Side Up]

The problem is finding the right airplane and finding the right people. As you said Hed, the ideal choices for such a plane are few and far between. Been keeping an eye on this market for said aircraft and you'll find most like you said fall into the clapped out or ex flight school machine. Unfortunately they just never filled the market with an ideal dedicated light training twin. Personally I really wish someone would have made like a mini - islander or a mini twin otter. High wing, fixed gear, slow, stol twin. Hmm, maybe a guy should take an old 180 carcass and sling two engines beneath the wings, make it like a mini-tri-motor...

10 like minded people is an even worse task. You'll get guys who feel the machine should have this monster IFR package, some who'll want to use it like their pick up truck. The arguement about icing capabilities, and the guy who insists it goes into the shop every time he thinks he hears a noise when he flies it. Worst you'll get the guys who'll try to make an extra buck on their turn around, so eventually the total cost of the machine becomes too much for new buy ins.

[Randleman]

buy a twin, build your hours

I have wondered for years why a group of AvCan 250 hr
wonders didn't buy a little twin, and fly it continuously back
and forth across the country, dropping off new part owner
pilots and picking up others, while everyone was furiously
logging PIC and dual in it.

You could buy your share, get your 100 hrs multi, then sell
your share to the next 250 hr wonder.

No OC required, no AMO. And the time would be completely
legit.

Oh, let's see, because most of the 200 hour wonders who only owe 40 000 dollars for their licenses probably can't even afford a cessna 150 of their own.
Seriously....?

[Invertago]

Surprised the thread got this far with out this photo coming up.

[Hedley]

Seriously....?

I guess you didn't read this far:

Honest multi time for $100/hr. Heck, you can't rent
a buck fifty for that at an FTU

If you can't afford to fly a 150, you probably can't afford
to build multi time, either.

SSU: You're probably right. After expending enormous
effort, most people are the architect of their own demise

[Randleman]

Seriously....?

I guess you didn't read this far:

Honest multi time for $100/hr. Heck, you can't rent
a buck fifty for that at an FTU

If you can't afford to fly a 150, you probably can't afford
to build multi time, either.

SSU: You're probably right. After expending enormous
effort, most people are the architect of their own demise

You are right, I can't afford to build multi time. I would rather wait till I get hired than spend my whole life in debt because I couldn't wait to get my hands on a throttle with 2 knobs (make all the "thats what she said jokes" you want here..._________)

[pilotincommand]

thats what she said

[Big Pistons Forever]

Most of the job they are asking for 500 hr in twin in Canada, but do you build this time?? in State all you need MEI (Multi Engin Instructor Rating). Any idea how to build this 500 hr?
Thank you

You get hired as an FO on a twin engine piston aircraft.

The jobs that want 500 hrs ME generally are either for a direct entry captain position on piston twins where you want the captain to actually know what they are doing, or as an FO on a turbine pressurized aircraft where the requirements are customer driven (ie Contrails or Medevac).

The importance to the company is not so much the actual number of hours (although this does help with insurance rates) but rather the fact it represents an indication of aquired experience operating in a commercial operation.

Bottom line/En bout de ligne
There are no shortcuts and you can not buy experience

[iflyforpie]

Personally I really wish someone would have made like a mini - islander or a mini twin otter. High wing, fixed gear, slow, stol twin.

Take your pick.







The Partenavia might be a little pricey. (~$150,000 and up. In comparison I've seen 'serviceable' Islanders go for around $60,000).
Flying the 336 might not qualify as 'real' multi time to some people. (I wonder if they say the same thing about the 727..).
The Lancer might be very hard to find and is less safe than most singles. If you can keep one airborne on one engine, you are the ultimate multi-engine pilot...

[Hedley]

you can not buy experience

You're probably right, BPF, but ...

Doesn't Southwest require that you buy your own B737 type rating before you even apply for a job with them?

Don't Wasaya and Voyageur (and most other Canadian Tier 3 operators) require that you finance them with tens of thousands of dollars to pay for a type rating when they hire you?

What's the difference between a company requiring new hires to have a type rating (for a large aircraft) or 100 hours multi time for a light piston twin which does not require a type rating?

Hard to see much difference between the two.

[Hoque]

you can not buy experience

You're probably right, BPF, but ...

Doesn't Southwest require that you buy your own B737 type rating before you even apply for a job with them?

Don't Wasaya and Voyageur (and most other Canadian Tier 3 operators) require that you finance them with tens of thousands of dollars to pay for a type rating when they hire you?

What's the difference between a company requiring new hires to have a type rating (for a large aircraft) or 100 hours multi time for a light piston twin which does not require a type rating?

Hard to see much difference between the two.[/quote

With Southwest if you get hired after that B737 type not before.

[Big Pistons Forever]

you can not buy experience

You're probably right, BPF, but ...

Doesn't Southwest require that you buy your own B737 type rating before you even apply for a job with them?

Don't Wasaya and Voyageur (and most other Canadian Tier 3 operators) require that you finance them with tens of thousands of dollars to pay for a type rating when they hire you?

What's the difference between a company requiring new hires to have a type rating (for a large aircraft) or 100 hours multi time for a light piston twin which does not require a type rating?

Hard to see much difference between the two
.

First I am not an advocate of anybody paying for any training after they have attained the necessary licenses and ratings. This may be the defacto standard , but it is still wrong. However I think your Southwest airline example is a poor one, because all of those pilots are allready highly experienced. They are simply applying that experience to a new airplane. A brand new MEIFR pilot has no experience. IMO the most sensible way to get that initial experience is to sit in the right seat and be mentored by a good captain. However there seems to be a portion of the 200 hr wannebe commercial pilots that don't want to do the apprenticeship phase and instead want to buy a bunch of ME hours so they can skip a critical developement phase. That is what I was refering to in the phrase "you cannot buy experience" . Hogue BTW is not in this catagory. If I was hiring lowtimers and the choice was between a guy/gal who had a couple of hundred hours as an FO in a decent operation, or a guy who had a couple of hundred hours of ME PIC he had payed for I would take the first one every time. There are two wrong ways to get that first couple of hundred hours of ME time.

1) pay for it

2) Instruct for the ME or MEIFR with just the bare minumum MEIFR and no line flying experience. ( I am still mystified why students would fork over the big bucks for a MEIFR and consent to be taught by an instuctor with no actual experience in the course they are teaching, when they could go to a school with an experienced instructor for basically the same money)

[. ._]

I was wondering that before too.

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