IFR Rating in YWG - Perimeter Aviaiton

[YWGGuy]

Hello Everyone,

I tired to start a topic earlier in the week, but the Mods had to approve of it... And my topic never showed up...

Anyhow, I just completed my training at Perimeter Aviation and I have to say speaking from someone who has been to many different flight schools (Private, CPL etc all done in different places) I was very pleased with Perimeter! They of course have the airline side, and because of that they get you to use the SOPs, and it really makes learning easier. I was lucky to find out about them, from word of mouth. I was only aware of them doing IFR training just before starting my training and checked them out. For those of you who want to do their IFR check out Perimeter - I am a very happy customer!

[IBPilot]

Anyhow, I just completed my training at Perimeter Aviation and I have to say speaking from someone who has been to many different flight schools (Private, CPL etc all done in different places) I was very pleased with Perimeter! They of course have the airline side, and because of that they get you to use the SOPs, and it really makes learning easier. I was lucky to find out about them, from word of mouth. I was only aware of them doing IFR training just before starting my training and checked them out. For those of you who want to do their IFR check out Perimeter - I am a very happy customer!

I have heard that Perimeter's IFR Programme is quite spectacular but I am still faithful to Harv's Air at YAV. From what I hear, Perimeter's Multi IFR is cheaper than Harv's and the A/C are way better but Harv's IFR Instructors offer a more relaxed environment which is the key to learning IFR effectively. IFR training is quite demanding and so a more relaxed environment really does help to ease the stress levels which increases productivity BUT on the same token, if you are after the cheapest possible method, then Perimeter is the way to go.

[Lurch]

Harv's IFR Instructors offer a more relaxed environment which is the key to learning IFR effectively. IFR training is quite demanding and so a more relaxed environment really does help to ease the stress levels which increases productivity.

You came by this conclusion after many years of IFR training, and hard IFR flying?

Lurch

[IBPilot]

Harv's IFR Instructors offer a more relaxed environment which is the key to learning IFR effectively. IFR training is quite demanding and so a more relaxed environment really does help to ease the stress levels which increases productivity.

You came by this conclusion after many years of IFR training, and hard IFR flying?

Lurch

Nooooo
This is what I've heard from talking with pilots and reading articles and flying with IFR pilots on a FAM ride. In general, my above claims stem from all the second hand knowledge I have absorbed. Yes.. I know the word 'second hand" is a bad one but I have heard enough of it to make a reasonable conclusion.

Regards

[Lurch]

Nooooo
This is what I've heard from talking with pilots and reading articles and flying with IFR pilots on a FAM ride. In general, my above claims stem from all the second hand knowledge I have absorbed. Yes.. I know the word 'second hand" is a bad one but I have heard enough of it to make a reasonable conclusion.

Regards

Well IMC is not the place to be relaxed, too many people have gotten into trouble/died when they relaxed.

Lurch

[YWGGuy]

IBPilot, with due respect I would hardly call Perimeter the place to go, if you want to do your IFR the "Cheap Way". Due to the strict syllabus I was able to be kept in the loop on what I was doing, and was kept focused which helped keep my cost down. (I know Harv's quiet well FYI as I have done training there in the past). The problem I had with Harv's is that there is less focus on your training - you just go out and go flying. I found at Perimeter, when we went flying we had more of a goal to complete by the end of the lesson.

As for the instructors at Harv's vs Perimeter it all depends on who you fly with. Some instructors where more on the ball with me, some where more relaxed. To each their own, but when I am paying 300 an hour to fly I do not want someone who is taking it easy and will be relaxed. Personal preference though.

From a personal perspective I thought the instructors at Perimeter where very knowledgeable regarding the IFR. When I had a question they where able to answer it for me on the spot. I found the instructors there to be top notch - I believe one or two even came from Harv's in the past.

Another bonus, was during the Winter I got to fly around and pick up ice, then deal with it and fly in hard IFR which is something that is very rare across the country for IFR training.

Overall I just wanted to share with everyone how much I enjoyed my time there at Perimeter, and I don't want to sound like I am knocking Harv's (or Winnipeg Aviation) at all they both have their qualities (in fact I was very happy with some tailwheel training I did at Harv's in Steinback some months back).

Cheers,

YWGGuy!

[IBPilot]

Well IMC is not the place to be relaxed, too many people have gotten into trouble/died when they relaxed.

Lurch

I did not say that it is good to be relaxed when your actually flying in IMC , I was saying that it is good to learn IFR in a relaxed environment. Of course, when your flying a IFR Approach with 1/8 mile Vis you have to be on edge, watching and doing everything perfectly (not drinking coffee and relaxing). The point is that learning IFR is challenging and stressful by itself. You don't need an instructor that is going to be creating more tension in the cockpit too. If you as the trainee are more relaxed and feel better and more confortable with the instructor, your IFR lessons are going to be learnt more effectively. This principle is the same for all training; an instructor that does not make the cockpit a relaxed learning environment, you as the trainee pilot are going to have an added amount of stress to deal with on top of what your learning.

And yes Lurch, I have seen many incidents where pilots in IFR conditions have F**ked up because they were not on the ball and focussed. But I am referring to the training.

[Lurch]

Maybe IBPilot in a few years of actual flight experience you will understand why I am giving you a bit of grief over your use of the word relaxed.

Since I have no first hand experience with either place mentioned I'll just re-quote YWGGuy because he did address it best.

The problem I had with Harv's is that there is less focus on your training - you just go out and go flying. I found at Perimeter, when we went flying we had more of a goal to complete by the end of the lesson.

when I am paying 300 an hour to fly I do not want someone who is taking it easy and will be relaxed. Personal preference though.

I have trained many PPL, CPL, and MIFR, and IFR needs to be more regamented and strict then the others. Anybody who teaches IFR "Relaxed" has probably never flown in it.

Lurch

[IBPilot]

Maybe IBPilot in a few years of actual flight experience you will understand why I am giving you a bit of grief over your use of the word relaxed.

Since I have no first hand experience with either place mentioned I'll just re-quote YWGGuy because he did address it best.

The problem I had with Harv's is that there is less focus on your training - you just go out and go flying. I found at Perimeter, when we went flying we had more of a goal to complete by the end of the lesson.

when I am paying 300 an hour to fly I do not want someone who is taking it easy and will be relaxed. Personal preference though.

I have trained many PPL, CPL, and MIFR, and IFR needs to be more regamented and strict then the others. Anybody who teaches IFR "Relaxed" has probably never flown in it.


Lurch

point taken

[Flygal]

Having flown with both Harv's and Perimeter I can assure you that they are both quality training establishments.

Perimeter specializes in the IFR. Before you can even attempt your multi rating, they stick you in the sim for a good 20 sessions (can't recall exact number) and you go over everything from emergencies to every single sort of IFR approach. One you've completed this THEN you can move onto the actual BE95. When you show up for a flight, there is a goal to be reach, a sort of game plan. The instructors all have previous IFR experience and are all very intelligent people. Their stringent use of check lists and SOP's prepares possible candidates for their first 200hr wonder job. Most instructors there are in line with the rampies for the metro too. They also have 3 planes and 2 sims.

Harv's air has a few problems in my opinion. As mentioned before, you show up and go flying. There is no syllabus to follow, so you just go up and do what the instructor feels like doing. They often only have one, possibly two instructors who can teach on the multi too. Getting a booking is near impossible because they only have one plane too. The place is also overrun with foreign students who will be in the right seat of an A320 before their instructor finds a caravan job.

In my opinion, Harv's should stick to the PPL/CPL game while Perimeter excels in the IFR world. Out of all he pilots i know around YWG, i can't name one I know who did their IFR at Harvs. I do know, on the other hand, tens of people who have gone through Perimeter and are now flying to the exotic north.

[Randleman]

I flew SE IFR in one of Harv's 172s once. Lots of fun. I also rent from there from time to time. Nice place, friendly instructors, however, you do become "just another face" because it is such a big school. If I would have done my IFR in Winnipeg, I would have done it with Perimeter, not Harv's, however. I also hear that if you do your IFR at Perimeter, they often remember you as a possibility for future employment (this is word of mouth, don't quote me on it..)

[ywgflyboy]

The other big benefit of Perimeter that no one was mentioned yet is that both of Winnipeg (and areas) other schools only have one multi-engine aircraft each. If something goes to the shits and it is off the line, your training stops. Harvs and Winnipeg Av have 30 and 10 plus aircraft and the multi is not always the priority in the maintenance line.

Here's another kicker... Harv's and Winnipeg Av fly out of YAV. No ILS there. Not just is there transit time to Winnipeg every flight, but you can't fly in actual IFR muck (the fun 250-300 feet stuff) because you have to get back into YAV eventually with minimums at 5** or something of the sorts. Perimeters B's are also certified for ice. An experience I think everyone needs.

I chose Perimeter after looking at all the benefits. To list a few:
- You pre-pay for your briefings and GPS gs. They do not charge you by the hour. If you have questions you don't have to worry about paying for answers by the second.
- GPS experience. Lets face it. GPS will rule the world in a number of years.
- Multiple multi-engines
- Professional atmosphere and SOPS
- They don't let you fly until you are ready. It is $300 an hour afterall. Lots of sim time and once you're in the plane, you know your stuff.
- A plan. This was a big one for me because from previous experiences in my PPL and CPL, my training was a complete shit hole with the instructor forgetting what we did last time and what we should be doing this time.

I have flown with all three. I could list benefits of all, but this is a Perimeter thread and I need to go to work

Cheers

[gaamin]

I trained at Perimeter in late 2008 for the following reasons after doing my CPL training in Steinbach :
- 3 aircrafts and enough instructors to not wait a long time for your booking
- the BE95s are the smallest aircrafts of Perimeter's fleet, doing maintenance on them is a quick and easy job for their big AMO (Steinbach's BE95 had been down for months when I was about to start my multi-IFR training)
- flying in known icing
- their full-time instructors fly a lot more multi-IFR than about any other school, not only instructing, but also operating single-pilot MIFR on the bag run for purolator, in the very same aircrafts used for teaching
- organised syllabus, you know what the plan is for your progression
- SOPs
- lower price, even when including the commute from/to Steinbach

...and I got all of it as expected.

[rjonno]

If you are planning a career as a profession pilot, Perimeter is the place to do your MIFR.

-Jonathan G.
CYWG

[SAR_YQQ]

<snip> Of course, when your flying a IFR Approach with 1/8 mile Vis you have to be on edge...

They teaching you guys CATIIIC ILS approaches? I certainly am on edge flying an approach down to those vis mins.