private compared to commercial operators

[Wonderingsomething]

I am wondering what some of the main differences are between private operators and commercial operators.

Thanks!

[Invertago]

I'm thinking your question is too open ended. Main differences, as in, Commercial guy is for hire for revenue etc, private operator is for personal or internal company use etc? Are you comparing say Telus aviation department vs Air Sprint?

[Wonderingsomething]

Fair enough. I am wondering some of the basic differences in the CARs. Things such as duty times, time free from duty, PPC/PCC, recency requirements, etc.

Thanks.

[A Regulator]

In general terms only - commercial ops you follow the applicable CAR/CASS Parts I through VII, For private ops you would follow the applicable Pars I - VI, you would not follow Part VII (which would include duty days, flight duty etc.) Private ops may have some sort of duty days/hours etc. but I only know commercial ops stuff). Then I am not sure happens if and when the private stuff (604) goes back to TC. Again this is in general terms only as there is lots of discussion as to what is meant by Private Ops. as in the 604 stuff or your regular guy with his private airplane.

[ahramin]

If you are talking about 604 stuff, the duty regs are similar to 703. PPC is every 2 years but you can go to a contract sim school and do a recurrent and that counts for a new PPC, including the instrument rating renewal, even though you don't do a ride.

Of course, that's just the default standard, you can put anything you want in your 604 ops manual as long as you think it is prudent and safe and your auditor approves it.

Who knows what is going to happen when TC takes over. It's not like they have the inspectors or expertise to deal with it.

[The Old Fogducker]

Ah yes ... the so-called "train to standard" rather than demonstrated competance. That from those folks who have attended "The Wal Mart of Licensing" ......companies that wouldn't fail a client even if the world would come to an end rather than sign off their cards for another year along with a discount certificate for next year's business training contract.

You seem to forget ... (or never knew in the first place) ... that 604 was very effectively overseen by TC Inspectors who were generally trained to a high standard on the type with both simulator and aircraft flying plus groundschool every 6 months ... most staggered their training so they were never more than 90 days from either flying the airlane or in the sim for training in addition to doing rides in the periods between...... and that was done nice and quiety for several decades until the former Director General of Civil Aviation saw a way to save some money and write off some staff in response to labour action by the pilot's association after being without a contract for more than 3 years. It was just very convenient that a former squadron buddy was the one that came forward with the proposal of a private organization to take over the regulatory oversight program of 604.

Irregularities in the administration of the program has forced TC to take the program back and administer oversight of the law to be done by a branch of government instead of the equivalent of the local pawn broker of Operating Certificates and audits ... it is alleged that several of those were falsified and never completed.....tough to be in serveral places at the same time on the same date.

Now the body of inspectors with 604 training and oversight experience has been vapourized by former TC senior management, there will be a learning curve on start up ... too bad those inspectors were farmed out, the training program budget gutted and raided by other sections.

Oh, and doing those audits by phone is an interesting concept too!

Yup ... now that TC is going to "take back" the business aircraft segment, things are bound to go to the dogs compared to the current administrators.

The Old Fogducker

[Wonderingsomething]

Keep 'em coming!!

[pollyperkins]

Ah yes ... the so-called "train to standard" rather than demonstrated competance. That from those folks who have attended "The Wal Mart of Licensing" ......companies that wouldn't fail a client even if the world would come to an end rather than sign off their cards for another year along with a discount certificate for next year's business training contract.

You seem to forget ... (or never knew in the first place) ... that 604 was very effectively overseen by TC Inspectors who were generally trained to a high standard on the type with both simulator and aircraft flying plus groundschool every 6 months ... most staggered their training so they were never more than 90 days from either flying the airlane or in the sim for training in addition to doing rides in the periods between...... and that was done nice and quiety for several decades until the former Director General of Civil Aviation saw a way to save some money and write off some staff in response to labour action by the pilot's association after being without a contract for more than 3 years. It was just very convenient that a former squadron buddy was the one that came forward with the proposal of a private organization to take over the regulatory oversight program of 604.

Irregularities in the administration of the program has forced TC to take the program back and administer oversight of the law to be done by a branch of government instead of the equivalent of the local pawn broker of Operating Certificates and audits ... it is alleged that several of those were falsified and never completed.....tough to be in serveral places at the same time on the same date.

Now the body of inspectors with 604 training and oversight experience has been vapourized by former TC senior management, there will be a learning curve on start up ... too bad those inspectors were farmed out, the training program budget gutted and raided by other sections.

Oh, and doing those audits by phone is an interesting concept too!

Yup ... now that TC is going to "take back" the business aircraft segment, things are bound to go to the dogs compared to the current administrators.

The Old Fogducker

What a load of CRAP!

"...effectively overseen by TC inspectors..."!!!! Ya Right - maybe if you ever saw one around which was at best sometimes to never! We never had a 604 audit prior to CBAA and we had been operating since 1996. The one and only time we had TC involved was to do the initial COM apporval (which took 3 f#*kn' months). After that it was the continual struggle to get a PPC done and when the a*#hole finally showed up, he had less knowlege, hours and experience on type than my lowest time gal.

As far as he was was concerend, it was a nice couple of days paid in Orlando (he even broght the famly once for a sideline at Disney).

The Minister is so out of touch; taking back the program for greater overight - Political bulls&%t to appease Daniel Slunder's minions and nay-sayers! If you don't want to do work - RETIRE! Whops, I'm sorry I forgot - you spent how many years and thousands of dollards to learn to fly a desk - you are already retired (from flying).

604's went from little or no oversight under TC pre-CBAA to having regular assesments (debate the effectiveness, but still better than nothing) at least every couple of years to now where the next assessment/audit is a figment of the Minister's imagination. Talk about what freedom we will have!

[Wonderingsomething]

I will try to get the topic back on track. What are some practical differences (703/704/705 compared to 604)?

[bezerker]

When I was hired at a Fortune 10 flight department the Dept. Manager asked me what the difference was between his Flight Dept. and other commercial operators. I gave a few non pertinent answers before he eloquently proposed a one sentence summary of the difference:

"We don't have to make money."

That really was the bottom line when it came to a private flight department. Too bad there is only a handful of those left in the country.

[bottom_feeder]

And for the most part, private organisations pay much better too. These companies are willing to compensate to keep well trained pilots. And although we fly under CARs 604, my training has been more extensive then I ever received as a 704 captain. But like bezerker said, we dont have to make money either...

[ahramin]

Fogducker, you are correct that I never knew 604 operations when TC was in charge. I do know that the 2 times I got ramped by TC flying 604 it was a total clown show. The inspectors had no idea what they were looking for or what the rules were.

From my standpoint the biggest difference between part 7 operations and 604 operations is that as a part 604 operator it is far easier to run a good operation. If you want to make an improvement, you go ahead and do it. SOPs don't have to be approved, ops manual changes only have to be approved when audit time comes around. Instead of using rules that may or may not provide an acceptable level of safety (ie fatigue rules) you are free to set rules based on current knowledge.

Of course this freedom also makes it easier to run a poor operation. But I don't know that it's that hard to do under part 7 either. Poor pilots still get passes on rides from ACPs when they shouldn't, and at least under CBAA rules the quality of training is higher. While it is certainly true that the CBAA has not been able to prevent some accidents which were a long time coming like the global express in eastern Canada, I don't see that TC has done a better job. I don't think I need to name all the part 7 operators that should have been shut down long before they had an accident.

As for TC taking over 604, it will drive the cost up, increase the paperwork, and probably will make no difference in the safety record. I haven't seen anything concrete from TC on how they are going to do the takeover and it sounds very similar to the SMS project: going ahead with implementation without any idea how to implement.