Just looking for some rough estimates on start-up and operating expenses using a C180/85 floatplane.

Costs for:

Financing the aircraft (assuming 20% down)
INSURANCE (hull & liability)
maintenance cost on a per hour basis

Serious responses much appreciated.

Not exactly what you were looking for but here is a rough estimate of operating costs for a DHC-2. You could sort of use it as a template:

DHC-2 MK I "DOC" Direct Operating Cost

Consumables
Fuel: (23 Gal) $184.00
Oil: (2QT) $15.00
Misc: (Pledge, H-5606, LPS-2, Barf Bags etc) $4.00
$203 / HR

Rotables
Engine Overhaul: 45k + 15% = $51,750.00
Prop O/H (Hamilton Std 2D): 11K + 15% = $12,650.00
$64400.00 / 1600HR TBO = $40.25 / HR

Maint (based on a 250 HR season)
Annual: 8K + 10% = $8800.00
Change-over and float maint.: 2.5K
100HR insp.: $1300.00 X 2.5 = $3250.00
$14550.00 / 250HRs = $58.20 / HR

Total DOC: $301.45 / HR

For a 180, multiply all the final dollar amounts in each sub-section by about .7 and by about .8 for a 185 and I'm sure you'll be in the ball park.

Pilots will work for free and there's nothing saying you definatelly have to insure the hull.

Financing can vary widely.

From the banks, for business loans or PLCs, the best I've seen lately is about 6.0%

My advice there would be to find a sugar-momma.


'48

Thats just the aircraft. Don't forget the infrastructure, and TC and CTA paperwork.

Infrastructure includes dock(s), fuel (double walled or diked), parking, shelter, washrooms, quarantine and flammable products lockers, 'approved AMO' etc, etc.

Its not as simple as registering the aircraft as Commercial and fly (though it should be).

Don't plan to be operating anytime soon; plan for a year to year & half.

thank you both for your responses.
lots to consider here...

You can download the pdf "TP 8880 Starting a Commercial Air Service" from here -

http://shop.tc.gc.ca/TChtml/ibeCCtpItmD ... item=42549

Or view the html version here http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... u-5178.htm

Forget about financing. Financing a plane is next to impossible. I've tried on 4 or 5 different occassions, I have an AAA credit rating and at the time I made $100,000+ a year and every time I was turned down flat. Banks don't like airplanes. They can't wrap their heads around how a 30 year old plane (vehicle in their books) that sold for $30,000 then could now be worth $300,000.

I've always had to save up cash or use a line of credit. But most people can't get an unsecured line of credit for enough to cover the purchase of a plane.

Your best bet is going to be to find a plane you can lease. Some may even offer a lease to own option.

Insurance will be your next issue. Usually inquiries like these come from low time guys so expect that to be refelected in your rates. If you're leasing then you will need Hull insurance. I would ball park $5500 for 10Million liability and 4%-5% for hull. So on a $150,000 plane (150,000 X .04 = $6000) $5500+6000= $11500 per year for insurance.

Now to get an OC is a two fold issue. One, the paperwork already mentioned. Two, to keep the paper work flowing you will need that plane and insurance in place. In other words you'll be paying lease and insurance rates but not able to generate revenue for a good portion of the time that it takes to get your OC.

Best of luck

beaver insurance will run you from 35 to 55 thousand $$ for a full year with a 500 hr pilot on floats flying the venerable dhc2 /250 hr season
= 133 hr as an average. current rates for the beaver are 6.00 to 8.50 a mile depending on location and competition in canada.

which really means FOGETABOUT IT!!!!

It's too bad that it has to be this hard to get an OC to operate a flight training/sightseeing/charter outfit using airplanes like the cub or 172. I was thinking of starting something like this at places like the Hamilton Ontario harbour or Toronto Island but again I was told I would never succeed so FOGETABOUTIT!

if you do finance hull insurance will most likely be required and if not it will be a hard sell not to get it. although I believe the rate for a commercially registered 185 hull insurance is around 10% of the aircraft value each year. (of course this varies depending on how many hours the pilot has)

It doesn't nesisarily take a year and a half. Five years ago I went from company incorporation to revenue flying in less than 5 months. The biggest hurdle is finacing, five years after starting, the bank is still my biggest headache. Your first 3 - 4 years the insurace will be high...really high, but if you make it through without bending anything, it will come down to a point where it is not quite so ridiculus.

Would I do it again.....I'm not sure. I'm not quitting, but not sure I would want to start from scratch again.

a lot of good points in this post. providing you have the cash or can get the cash, the biggest issues is keeping up on all the TC paperwork. trust me it is a lot of headaches for very little money. If i had realized all the headaches in the first place, i probably wouldnt be here!! Keep in mind that you also have to hold all the TC positions - Chief Pilot, Maintenance Manager and Ops manager (cause as a small op you won't be able to afford to pay anyone!). Before holding these positions, you have to have so many years of aviation experience, write a test and then do a interview. As for insurance, it doesnt matter if you have a perfect safety record and no claims either as your insurance will never go down as your premiums is dictated by all the other floatplane accidents.

floatrfun wrote:As for insurance, it doesnt matter if you have a perfect safety record and no claims either as your insurance will never go down as your premiums is dictated by all the other floatplane accidents.

My insurance dropped 35% in year #4 after 3 seasons of no claims. Maybe I was getting REALLY screwed in those first 3 years.