VFR Flight CNC3 (Burlington) to St. John NB

[FootDragger]

Hey Guys,

Thought I'd come here for some newbie advice. I'm a pretty fresh PPL holder and I'm looking to fly out to St. John (VFR) for a festival sometime mid august. My plan was to fly direct, skirting the lakeshore from Burlington, then flying over Maine for an eventual arrival at St. John. Seeing as how the majority of my time has been spent skirting Class E airspace, I have yet to cross over the Control Zone surrounding Toronto enough times to be comfortable. I just have a few questions on being a better pilot, and answering some things that I'm a little unsure about.

1) When flying into Toronto Area Control airspace, I dial up Toronto Centre and request VFR flight following from them. Do they hand you off to say, YTZ when along route. Also, would they hand me off to Montreal, then Moncton.
2) If I'm denied entry (Which I've heard can happen), do I just skirt the 1500 feet all along lakeshore?
3) What are the issues with flying over US airspace while direct? Do you need to contact the appropriate American unit and obtain permission?
4) The aircraft will be a 172. Any other considerations during this trip?

I know this may seem ridiculous to some, and yes I have looked over the CFS, but I find some practical advice from people who have done this route or advice from people familiar to be the best way to avoid a mistake.

Thanks again for anyone willing to help!

[skypirate88]

Good luck on the flight...should be a pretty good learning experience.

Quick question, not that it matters too much but are you flying out of Burlington or Brampton (which is CNC3)?
1) Yes you can just call up centre (should be 119.3) from your area and ask. They will ask your intentions....things like route preference and preferred altitude. You are correct, they will likely hand you off to the island, then you will likely just call them back on 133.4
2) I've never been denied flight following before, just denied my preferred altitude. The lowest I've ever been given was 2000 on the shore but who knows
3)There are no issues flying over American airspace as long as you don't land and are talking to some sort of controller from what I remember. Whether it is an American or Canadian controller I don't think makes a difference.
4)Considerations: survival kit with means of purifying water, making shelter, rations, and signalling distress. Having a 172 that has more then just a basic 6 pack of instruments will help too. VOR/GPS would be good things to have (assuming you know how to use them)

Again, good luck with the trip

[Naveed]

Ive done similar routes to YSJ. I've never had a issue thru the YYZ part, they either just tell me to pick a way, going north around it, or south on the lake., I found the biggest problem with the flight, VFR anyway, was after montreal left you off, getting ahold of Maine Center ( I dont remember the actual name) but I had to climb to 9.5 to talk to anybody, and even then its always staticy. Its definately a nice flight tho.

[GoinNowhereFast]

1. The biggest tip I have for dealing with center is to be confident and concise. Those guys are busy and don't want the frequency taken up with "ummms" and "ahhhhhs". Remember though, they are human beings as well, so don't be afraid to talk to them. It also won't hurt to tell them your new to flight following. I remember I did when I requested flight following the first time.
Flight following through Toronto is an excellent idea for a number of reasons. I request it every time I fly though that area [not very often unfortunatly].

2. If you are denied flight following, just stay out of the class C rings. I don't have the VTA in front of me, but 1500' sounds like it could be right.

3. Flying through US airspace is really a non-issue. They don't really care as long as you don't land. You will have to deal with all the airspace around airports just as you would in Canada.

4. HAVE FUN!

[Teeg]

sounds like a great trip. ive never done the golden horseshoe, but i am based in NB.

even if you DONT plan on landing in the US of A, bring a passport just in case. Ive known students to land in northern maine due to mechanicals, with no passport, and they got deported, without an airplane.

If you dont have a passport, may i suggest flying up the st. lawrence to Riviere du Loup CYRI, and then south to CYSJ. Obviously would add time, but the st. lawrence is pretty.

after montreal ACC, youll be talking to Boston ACC. In the event Montreal does not give you flight following, you CAN ask for the Boston frequency. As you pointed out, Boston may not even have you on radar for the majority of the trip.

watch out, they talk funny
Enjoy!
T

[frog]

Consideration : Fog in Saint John !

[172PIC]

Be sure to watch out for the small part of the Pearson Class B that goes a bit out into the lake (pretty sure it's where the humber meets the lake) and avoid overflight of Ontario Place, just call up on 119.3 over one of the VFR points and go from there, I found it was far simpler than I expected. There's no chance I'd fly around there without flight following especially along the lakeshore.

I've never overflown the US but I'd want a passport for sure, and I'd recommend reading up all the info on the COPA site for cross border even if you're just overflying so you don't run into problems. Be sure to get a briefing from US FSS first too, especially for any TFRs or other active airspace on the route as well.

[algore]

One thing I don't think anyone has mentioned is that if you plan to fly through US airspace, even with no intention of landing, you must be on a flightplan, not an itinerary. You must also have a discrete transponder code (I.E. be assigned something other than 1200 by ATC). If you decided not to file a flight plan, I'd suggest bringing a nice camera, cause you get some great photo's of the F-16's from the Vermont Air National Guard .
I've flown that route a few times, and it's beautiful. Just bear in mind that there is NOTHING in the northern states except hills and logging roads... I had an engine start coughing over northern Maine one time and my options were pretty limited. Luckily she held out until YFC, and we discovered that a newly changed cylinder was leaking oil. Not a good feeling being over the northern US with a sputtering engine. All in all, it’ll be a great experience. If you have the time, I suggest continuing on across the bay to the Annapolis Valley in Nova Scotia. Most beautiful spot in the country (but I’m a bit bias)
Cheers

[Aviatard]

Be aware that the direct route from Brampton to Saint John takes you through a number of Military Operations Areas. You'll want to call FSS in the states to make sure that they are not active at the time of your flight. You'll be traveling over some fairly high terrain, at least compared to southern Ontario. If they clouds force you lower this will be a consideration. Finally, it's about a 600 NM trip if you go direct. That's a very long flight in a C172. You might want to consider going to somewhere like St. Hubert (CYHU) and stopping for gas before continuing.

[Aviatard]

Be sure to watch out for the small part of the Pearson Class B that goes a bit out into the lake

Not that it really matters much for the purposes of contacting ATC but I believe that is Class C, and not Class B.

[FootDragger]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the great advice, and you guys are right. It's CZBA (I should know better but I initially started my training in Brampton so it's still stuck in my head).

Are there any differences between American and Canadian FSS? Or do I just dial up and say intentions like Canada?

Cheers, and thanks again for all the thoughtful and great answers.

[skypirate88]

Canadian and American FSS don't seem to like to talk to one another. I've heard a couple times where a flight plan has been filed for a border cross, but nothing was passed over to the guys on the other side. Shouldn't be a problem since you aren't planning to land

[RatherBeFlying]

It looks like you don't have to get eAPIS approval for the overflight, but what happens if you have a mechanical or weather problem requiring landing before you can get back into Canada?