Portable Aviation Oxygen

[comanchepilot]

Just wondering if any of the posters on here have any experience with portable ABO (Aviators Breathing Oxygen) systems?

I have been looking at investing in one, but I can not find anyone locally (praxair, medigas, etc.) that is willing to fill it without shipping the tank out to have it done? Even then, they warned that a cylinder manufactured in the US (which is where the company I would order it from is based) may get refused by their filling depot, and returned to me empty.

My local FBO also does not supply oxygen, and even if they did most FBO's usually charge 4-5 times to fill it.

From all of the research I have done, it seems like the only way to actually get it filled is to rent the massive 150lb cylinders and transfill it myself, which at this point is not a feasible solution for me.

BTW, most of the background as to why they won't fill it locally is because it is "special" oxygen, which from the reading I have done is pure BS anyway because it all comes from the same tank when they fill it.

If anyone has any suggestions, or any experience with these systems, I would appreciate the help.

Thanks,

Comanchepilot

[bamboo]

I used to take it to the hospital and get it filled. Never charged me a thing.

[Blakey]

Aviation oxygen is dry so your regulators don't freeze, medical oxygen has a moisture content so it doesn't dry out your lungs and throat when you're on it for weeks at a time.

[ANalli]

Some research I've done on the subject suggests that welders oxygen fits the bill quite nicely and is not uncommon for private pilots. Large tanks can be had from gas suppliers like Praxair for something like $75/yr so it's actually quite an economical way to refill your portable tank as well.

[Louis]

Scuba shops that do Nitrox fills may also be able to help you out.

[PanEuropean]

Some research I've done on the subject suggests that welders oxygen fits the bill quite nicely...

Uh, I would be very cautious about using welding oxygen. I know that the specifications for Aviation Breathing Oxygen specifically address the fact that the gas has to be fit for human consumption. The same applies to Medical Oxygen, it also has to be fit for human consumption (although, as a previous poster noted, it is not suitable for aviation use because it is not sufficiently "dry" - the moisture in Medical Oxygen could freeze if used in an aviation environment).

Welding oxygen is not intended to support human life, and it is possible that the specification for this product permits impurities that would not affect the suitability of the gas for welding, but may affect the suitability of the gas for sustaining human life.

It's similar to the specifications for jet fuel, diesel fuel, and home heating fuel, which are all 'kissing cousins' so far as their composition is concerned. The principle difference between these three products is the amount of water and other contaminants permitted. As one petroleum engineer told me, the quality specifications for home heating fuel don't permit any contaminants larger than a pair of old sneakers. The quality specifications for jet fuel are a bit tighter.

If the first FBO you check with seems to you to be expensive (for filling the bottle with Aviation Breathing Oxygen), perhaps call around - you might be able to find another FBO that is less expensive.

[RVgrin]

Some research I've done on the subject suggests that welders oxygen fits the bill quite nicely...

Uh, I would be very cautious about using welding oxygen. I know that the specifications for Aviation Breathing Oxygen specifically address the fact that the gas has to be fit for human consumption. The same applies to Medical Oxygen, it also has to be fit for human consumption (although, as a previous poster noted, it is not suitable for aviation use because it is not sufficiently "dry" - the moisture in Medical Oxygen could freeze if used in an aviation environment).

Welding oxygen is not intended to support human life, and it is possible that the specification for this product permits impurities that would not affect the suitability of the gas for welding, but may affect the suitability of the gas for sustaining human life.

Really? I heard the opposite - that modern industry demands a much purer product than hospitals. But I suspect that is a moot point, because it is all the same. There is no way oxygen suppliers would go through the expense and hassle of setting up different processes for different customer/uses (Aviation, Medical, Welding, Research, etc.) when they can build one that meets the purest spec. (That bit about water content being desirable in medical oxygen is true, but the water is added by the hospital before it reaches the patient. It is not compressed by in the tank by the supplier.)

Personally, I would bet my life that modern welder's oxygen is safe to use. In fact I already have. Of course you need to make the decision yourself.

[comanchepilot]

I am completely on-board with the welder's oxygen thing, and there are many articles to support it... but it doesn't make it any easier to get it filled.

I don't want to buy the system and then find out that when I take it to a welding shop that they will refuse to fill it because the cylinder is stamped for ABO...

I know the cylinder rental from praxair is cheap, and you can fill a portable bottle with the large tank enough times to make it pay for itself, however at this time I don't have the means to cart around a 150lb steel cylinder... I don't have anywhere to store it (no garage), and it would take too much coordination to get the people together to pick one up and move it from praxair, etc. to my place.

Are there any posters on here that use these systems on a regular basis?

[BGH]

I was a first aid attendant for a long time & was told that I could use welders oxygen for medical purposes(the large tanks) because it was the same oxygen,the old days had a drier,or filtered oxygen - but they now used the same oxygen for all purposes.

Daryl

You could always rent the oxygen bottles from the local air liquide supplier(or whoever you deal with in your area) & just buy the adapters to fill your bottle yourself.Just remember to store it properly.

[200hr Wonder]

Couple of things here,

First off ABO and Medical O2 are different, being that we carry both on board, they come from our gas supplier in different bottles, though the water could be added at the filling end, everything comes from the same tank.

As for using welding O2 for breathing see if you can get the smaller C or B sized cylinder. I have no idea about the availability of the smaller sizes. 60 or 27 pounds so much more manageable. The issue being that if you use a smaller tank you will get significantly less value out of filling because you are not using a pressure boosting system.

The other option is if you are lucky enough to have a medivac operator close to you, ask them if they can fill the cylinder. They should have the equipment and stock both medical and aviators oxygen and lets face it, even if you talk nice to the AMEs and give them beer money you could be sucking on fresh tasty O2

[PanEuropean]

The idea posted right above about visiting a local medivac operator is an excellent idea.

Michael

[Therewewere]

Hmmm let me think.... Air on the prairies is a lot dryer than air on the coast. Maybe there is some kind of relationship between all the red necks in Alberta and all the tree huggers in B.C. Come on guys Oxygen is ......... Well Oxygen. O, If a bottle is filled with oxygen, well again, its oxygen. Most operators will get a bottle from an Oxy/acetylene dealer and make an adaptor so they can fill the bottles on their aircraft. Just make sure you don't get the bottles mixed up!!! Sure you can get "Aviation" Oxygen from an FBO and pay through the nose simply because it has airplane marked somewhere on it.

It is also kind of interesting what was said about home heating oil. Obviously you have never flown in the Arctic because that is all you can get in a lot of the smaller communities. I asked about it one time from the Oil and Gas guys that I was flying all over the different communities from Inuvik all the way to Iqualuit and was told that it is P50 fuel and that was what they were doing, the testing and for all intents and purposes it is identical to Jet A.

[PanEuropean]

It is also kind of interesting what was said about home heating oil. Obviously you have never flown in the Arctic...

My reference was to the specification, not to the product. The specification defines what you are entitled to expect, and the ICA and the CARs define what specification must be used. What product actually comes out of the fuel manifold may vary - in other words, what you take delivery of when you purchase some lower-spec products may in fact be a higher spec product that also conforms to the lower spec.

For example, in the illustration I gave (jet fuel, automotive diesel, home heating oil), the three products are chemically very similar. A higher specification product (e.g. jet fuel) can be, and often is, substituted for a lower specification product. I have seen fuel manifolds that have three different labels and three different meters on them that all drain from a common tank. You can use fuel that meets the auto diesel specification or the jet fuel specification for home heating purposes, but you cannot specify home heating fuel for aviation use.

The bulk of the discussion above focuses on whether or not the product you get when you purchase welder's oxygen is similar or identical to Aviation Breathing Oxygen. It may well be that frequently the products are identical (in other words, they come from the same manufacturing batch). But, the specification for welder's oxygen is probably different from the specification for Aviation Breathing Oxygen, and in our industry, we are obliged to conform to specifications.

A similar example might be fasteners. You can use a higher spec fastener (e.g. an aviation product) for a lower spec purpose (to fix your wheelbarrow). But, you can't use the wheelbarrow fastener to fix your aircraft, even if you know darn well that it came off the exact same manufacturing line as the wheelbarrow fastener. Ask any AME.

[Spinner]

I tried to find the story from a few years ago. It involved a single engine aircraft flying at higher altitiude with the pilot on (welding) oxygen.
The theory was that because the welders oxygen is not pure oxygen but a blend that the pilot was not getting enough to sustain himself. I don't have the facts or figures but there is a reason why they market ''aviators oxygen".
Feel free to debunk this theory but please check into it before you go and fill with welding oxygen or other.

thanks,

[albertdesalvo]

1) Your local bait & tackle shop should have lots of pure oxygen, they use it to oxygenate the baitwells. When they sell live minnows, they put them in a plastic bag half full of water and fill the other half with oxygen. At least that's how they do it around here. Them good ol boys might just give you a fill.

2) You can get disposable Bernz-O-Matic cylinders at any Canadian Tire, Home Hardware, Walmart etc.

3) Medical oxygen distributors will deliver the stuff in small (aircraft size) bottles right to your door. I used to see them come to my neighbour's place several times a week. Full bottle goes in, empty one comes out, truck drives off. I think this is your best bet.

[200hr Wonder]

As for specifications here is how it works in the REAL world. The refinery says OK, today we are making Jet A, the fire up and the stuff comes off the end of the line into a tank. They test it, it has too much sulfur in it but it is still OK for diesel, so the tank is sold off as diesel. The next tank full tests OK as Jet A and it goes out as Jet A the last bit of the batch ends up having too much water in it after quality control tests for Jet A or Diesel so it is sold off as home heating oil. The same thing happens with Oxygen, Computer Chips, Lumber you name it. The production line is always trying to make the highest quality but if something is not quite good enough to meet spec they will mark it down and sell it as such rather than simply scraping it. Take O2 for example even if Welding oxygen needs to have a higher purity perhaps it allows a wider range of impurities and still be used. Maybe a little sulfur dioxide is OK in Welding Oxygen? Or other things you don't want to breath. Just because it comes from the same pipe does not mean it is not held to different standards. And yes lots of times the final product is only labeled as such AFTER it has been packaged and QAed.

[albertdesalvo]

An illuminating article here:

http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182079-1.html

[northernpedlar]

The reason why you may have a hard time getting your cylinder filled is not because it is Aviation Oxygen, but because the cylinder was manufactured in the USA. In Canada cylinders are required to meet CSA standards and perhaps the cylinder you are purchasing has not been certified to the CSA standards.