Boundary Bay flight schools

[Cosmo Kramer]

There appears to be a number to choose from at CZBB. So, the $10000ish question is which one is best for a PPL. Give me your opinions folks. Instructors. Ground school format. Aircraft type and availability. Airport traffic. The whole lot.

And, in considering all sides, is there a school at Pitt Meadows I should consider instead ... it would be a bit of a further drive.

[North Shore]

Haven't flown out of BB in a while, but IIRC, the practice area is up in Glen Valley - so you'll have quite a commute. Might be better to take the Pitt Meadows option and do the commute in your car, not at $100/hr in a plane. ZBB's pretty busy also, so doing circuits might be a problem later on..
I'm sure if you root around in TC's website, they'll give you the average time taken to PPL at the various BB schools, and the ones at Pitt etc..

[moocow]

I got my PPL from CFC back in 2007 and does fly out of CZBB whenever I can afford to rent a plane. CZBB is/was busy airport, I don't know how bad it is now. It's not unusual to sit on the ground waiting for a spot to open up in circuits. North Shore is correct about Glen Valley, it's packed as hell. At least with Pitt Meadows, you can just fly up the valley and practice upper air work and use the farm fields for force approaches. Can't really say which one is best for PPL, go and talk to people and look at their planes. All my instructors at CFC moved on to other things and some moved over to Sealand Air.

CFC - Piper Cherokee and Warrior, C-152 (aero and regular), diesel C-172, 2 tail dragger, 2 twins, 1 King Air
Pacific Flying Club - mostly Cessna
SLA - Diamond DA20, DA40, DA42 don't know how hot weather affects their composite structure
Montair - mostly Cessna
Pro - mostly Cessna and some twins

IMO, aircraft choice doesn't matter at the moment. You can always check out another type in the future. I was trained on Cherokee but later checked out on the Warrior (easy), and C-172. The C-152 is a very small and slow aircraft. If you are on the tall and larger side, it may be very uncomfortable.

Pacific Rim at Pitt Meadows appear to be a nice place. I only did a few check out rides with them. Their planes are always clean and well kept, at least their interior doesn't look like a rat been chewing at it.

CFC's ground school is at night at their school during the week, however it appears their CPL ground school is now online. SLA may have ground school at their Richmond mall location and CZBB office. Pacific Rim have a urban ground school in North Van. You really should drive out and talk to them.

[westcoasting]

I would fly out of Pitt Meadows if you are interested in saving a ton of money. Most of the time you will be flying in the pitt lake practice area, which takes at least 20 minutes to fly to from CZBB there and back.... Pitt you are right there.

[loopa]

I would fly out of Pitt Meadows if you are interested in saving a ton of money. Most of the time you will be flying in the pitt lake practice area, which takes at least 20 minutes to fly to from CZBB there and back.... Pitt you are right there.

Hit up Pacific Rim Aviation Academy out in YPK. You want to look for an instructor named Alex Denham. Alex is their CFI and is truly a class act. Either way, all of his instructors are top notch so you would not go wrong abouts doing your training with them. They teach you how to become a pilot, not simply how to pass the flight test. Their owner Chris is a fantastic individual. He has kept a very clean and professional operation, and if you get on his good side may take you up in his float plane! I would like to think there's a good reason behind why Pacific Rim's business has expanded pretty well!

The one thing about pacific rim is that they are very particular about how they do things. Such as the color of pens you use to fill out journey logs, or how you fold the seat belt after your flight. All their methods are towards providing a clean, and neat looking environment, which corresponds quite well with the quality of training they provide! So this is not a place that you can get away with making mistakes. You will definitely learn from them, and in a good fashion

If I could do it all again, I would do it with Pacific Rim.

You know my vote!

Best of luck!

[ZBBYLW]

My two cents would be to go to CFC and do your PPL on the 7ECA. It would be by FAR the best choice to make and would teach you a lot about flying an aircraft.

[loopa]

ZBBYLW, do you have an idea of why so many instructors have recently (and i mean in the last few months) quit CFC without finding employment elsewhere?

I'm not sure what the reason is, but the notion I get about CFC is that it's no longer the way it used to be. I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing. I noticed they repainted some of their planes and hooked up all of them with Garmin 430's and etc... Not sure what is going on. Sounds to me like they're trying to improve the operation but the recent out lash of instructors makes me wonder.

But I definitely like your idea! It would be fantastic to do your training on that plane!

[Old Dog Flying]

Ron H. is no longer at CFC and I have no idea who is now in control of the day-to-day operation but if the instructors are bailing out, it doesn't sound like a happy work place. I used to do some part time instructing out of CFC and it was a friendly operation.

[loopa]

Ron H. is no longer at CFC and I have no idea who is now in control of the day-to-day operation but if the instructors are bailing out, it doesn't sound like a happy work place. I used to do some part time instructing out of CFC and it was a friendly operation.

I was a student and it was a great place... key word ... "was" I hope it's still going well!

[babyspice]

YPK and ZBB are both the best places in the lower mainland for training probably - both very busy and close to practice areas - I would recommend ZBB over YPK. ZBB has very good schools - CFC / PRO / PFC are the best places - stay away from the scum mold infested portable building called Montair-absolute horrible place with a CFI who has no interest in your aviation goals whatesoever. Ensure you get a class III or II instructor (stay away from IV's - some are good but most know nothing).

Ron H. is no longer at CFC and I have no idea who is now in control of the day-to-day operation but if the instructors are bailing out, it doesn't sound like a happy work place. I used to do some part time instructing out of CFC and it was a friendly operation.

CFC has a new CFI who is awesome. Best is to walk into each one and do your research!! Intro flights are cheap and are highly recommended! Good Luck!

[ypk_girl]

ZBBYLW, do you have an idea of why so many instructors have recently (and i mean in the last few months) quit CFC without finding employment elsewhere?

I'm not sure what the reason is, but the notion I get about CFC is that it's no longer the way it used to be. I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

The reason so many of their instructor are leaving (without having other jobs to go to) is that CFC's new management want them to work for freee. A business that is built on getting people to work for free may work for you as a student but if a school can't pay their instructors properly do you trust them to also maintain their airplanes?

[loopa]

ZBBYLW, do you have an idea of why so many instructors have recently (and i mean in the last few months) quit CFC without finding employment elsewhere?

I'm not sure what the reason is, but the notion I get about CFC is that it's no longer the way it used to be. I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

The reason so many of their instructor are leaving (without having other jobs to go to) is that CFC's new management want them to work for freee. A business that is built on getting people to work for free may work for you as a student but if a school can't pay their instructors properly do you trust them to also maintain their airplanes?

CFC has a new CFI who is awesome. Best is to walk into each one and do your research!! Intro flights are cheap and are highly recommended! Good Luck!

This is exactly the kind of inconsistency that I am hearing about CFC. Some people say the new crew is awesome, other's aren't too happy and are leaving (or already quit). Cosmo, if I were you I would look into the school a bit more and make your own judgement call. For all you know, CFC might be the kind of place you see yourself doing your training with. It's your investment. Think of your instructor as the person that you want to hire, to teach you how to stay safe and fly an aircraft proficiently. Be it CFC, Pacific Rim, Pro IFR, or where ever else you go. Make sure you get your name in with the CFI and have a chat with them. Often times, a lot can be found out about a school as soon as you speak a few words with the guy himself. The CFI is the face of the company, and represents the leadership a company prevails. This is one of the biggest reasons why i recommend Pacific Rim, for Alex Denham is truly one of those top notch CFI's. Young, but knows how to be a leader.

As for the comment about getting a class III or a II, but staying away from a IV. While I agree with that to some extent, it's important to remember that those III's and II's were at some point a IV. Also, I can name at least a few II's who don't know what the hell they're talking about. The grading system can be a good way to look at somebody's experience in the instructing field, but can at the same time be very vague.

On a contrary note; a really good math teacher goes and gets his instructor rating (flagged as a class 4). Do you honestly think that somebody with 30 years of teaching experience would be a kind of flight instructor that would settle for knowing the bare minimums, or better yet, not know anything? I highly doubt that. Or let me ask you this, would you rather fly with somebody who went from a class 4 to a 2 in 2 years, or with a 4 who has had experience teaching for 30 years? So there definitely are a thing or two to consider before you flag certain classes. One can very easily say that you should stay away from Class 2's because they're busy with their CFI's duties.

So there definitely are good class 4 instructor's around, you just have to research and find them. I believe the quality of instruction at a flight school, again, comes back to the leadership (CFI), and how smart he/she is. For a good CFI, will know the difference between good and bad instructors, and consecutively uses that in his/her selection process when hiring. A bad CFI on the other hand does not only have a lack of leadership skills, their hiring practices are most likely bizarre as well - leading to the employment of instructors without really knowing what it is he/she needs to look for. You don't want to do your training with a school whose leader gets through road blocks by "winging" it.

Part of your experience knocking on doors, and interviewing instructors should reveal if the school/instructor is worth your time or not. If you research on the boards, there are quite a few posts on what kind of questions to ask your potential instructor. Remember, if they don't spend time answering your questions now, chances are they won't care much about you.



Good Luck Buddy!

[flyingdiaper]

CFC was the school I would recommend if it was the same school before.
But now it has become something unrecognizable because of the new ownership.
Like some of them already mentioned, most of the good old instructors left.
Inconsistency in school policy, miss treating instructors, serious safety issues etc etc...
They started to charge mandatory 0.3 ground briefing for every flight too!
Oh, one thing good about new CFC! they got this shiny granite washroom floor and shelves.
Apparently all the extra money collected from student went to modernize the facility.
But, who gives a xxxx about interior,,, all we want is a decent learning atmosphere.

Besides CFC:
PFC: Big number in Cessna fleet, fairly good school. When busy with BCIT and Air Cadet, they'll put priority to them.
PRO: Well balanced. Great seminars. But during the summer busy time, hard to get a hold the aircraft.
Sealand Air: Great family atmosphere like the one CFC used to have. Operates diamonds. Recently got shiny new Diamond DA42.
International: I haven't seen them flying,,,

I wouldn't mention here which school is the best in ZBB,
because I'm class3 instructor who belongs to one of the above.
So there's bias in my opinion and I'd surely advertise my school is the best.
You can PM me if you want to know further detail though.

[into the blue]

If you decide to go with Pro-IFR, I highly recommend Bob Salway. He has 30+ years of flying experience and, despite being only a Class 3, he will teach you things that the fresh-faced instructors simply won't be able to. Also, he is currently the only instructor who is sufficiently qualified to provide tailwheel instruction on the school's Citabria. You do, however, need to work hard: he doesn't like lazy students.

[CAP]

do any schools in zbb offer an aerobatic rating or anywhere else? anyone know anything about price/instructor availability? thanks!

[cjpilot]

Pro in the Citabria with Bob Salway.

Bob is a great instructor and and has a genuine interest in the success of his students... he's not there to pad his logbook for the airlines. You'll also come away from it with the wherewithall to fly the taildragger, and moreover, the airplane is always available, quite unlike the 152/172s.

Also, there doesn't seem to be much of a price difference between the 'tab at Pro and CFC, but I've heard the CFC rules for taking it solo are quite restrictive.

[Osiris]

do any schools in zbb offer an aerobatic rating or anywhere else? anyone know anything about price/instructor availability? thanks!

At CYNJ (Langley) there should be a dedicated aerobatic school starting up in three months or so. A Super Decathlon has already been purchased. Feel free to PM me for more information.

[akoch]

guys, don't forget about the rates as well. It does make a difference.

$140/h for a 152..... this hurts.

[Randleman]

I'm not much of a fan of Pitt Meadows, so I'd go either at Boundary Bay, or if the drive is reasonable you could go out to Langley. If you do go at BB I'd go with Pro. I trained there a bit and was quite happy with it. Their facilities are old, but that's due to the fact the terminal building is old. Good instructors, good planes, and good maintenance. Don't do CFC, PFC (unless you want to constantly be bumped for BCIT students), or Montair (too expensive). SLA may also be a good option, I've heard good things there.

If you're looking to do anything more than private, consider moving away for your training. You will get your licenses WAY faster in a place like Winnipeg, Saskatchewan, or even places in Alberta than you will in Vancouver. Not to mention the rates are cheaper.

[PROIFR]

Hello Randleman,

Thank you for the posting, you should note that Professional Flight Centre, has moved into a brand new facility 9 months ago, just to the east of the old main terminal building.

Our complete operation including dispatch, briefing rooms, simulator rooms, and flight planning is completely brand new.

[Randleman]

Hello Randleman,

Thank you for the posting, you should note that Professional Flight Centre, has moved into a brand new facility 9 months ago, just to the east of the old main terminal building.

Our complete operation including dispatch, breifing rooms, simulator rooms, and flight planning is completely brand new.

Nice! I haven't been there in over a year so I wouldn't know. Will have to come over there and check that out next time I am in BC.

In that case, strike what I said about old facilities.

The other good thing about pro, is you rarely have trouble with finding a plane available.

[Lurch]

So there definitely are good class 4 instructor's around, you just have to research and find them. I believe the quality of instruction at a flight school, again, comes back to the leadership (CFI), and how smart he/she is. For a good CFI, will know the difference between good and bad instructors, and consecutively uses that in his/her selection process when hiring. A bad CFI on the other hand does not only have a lack of leadership skills, their hiring practices are most likely bizarre as well - leading to the employment of instructors without really knowing what it is he/she needs to look for. You don't want to do your training with a school whose leader gets through road blocks by "winging" it.

So let's say there is a Class IV who acts like they know it all, lazy, don't want to help out around the school, and students no longer want to fly with them, what should the CFI do? Is this to be blamed on the CFI or should the instructor be to blame for their poor work ethic? Maybe they should man up admit they were wrong and learn from their mistakes, or maybe just lie to their next employer as to why they were fired!

Thoughts?

Lurch

[Big Pistons Forever]

So there definitely are good class 4 instructor's around, you just have to research and find them. I believe the quality of instruction at a flight school, again, comes back to the leadership (CFI), and how smart he/she is. For a good CFI, will know the difference between good and bad instructors, and consecutively uses that in his/her selection process when hiring. A bad CFI on the other hand does not only have a lack of leadership skills, their hiring practices are most likely bizarre as well - leading to the employment of instructors without really knowing what it is he/she needs to look for. You don't want to do your training with a school whose leader gets through road blocks by "winging" it.

So let's say there is a Class IV who acts like they know it all, lazy, don't want to help out around the school, and students no longer want to fly with them, what should the CFI do? Is this to be blamed on the CFI or should the instructor be to blame for their poor work ethic? Maybe they should man up admit they were wrong and learn from their mistakes, or maybe just lie to their next employer as to why they were fired!

Thoughts?

Lurch

The CFI should do their job. In the case study you describe the CFI should provide specific verbal and then written guidance on were the Instructor must demonstrate immediate improvement. Failure of the Instructor to get their Sh*t together means dismisal. There are lots of Class 4's out there so is no reason to put up with someone who can't/won't cut it. Harsh...Yes but there are enough crappy instructors out there allready, flight instructing won't improve untill the Fu*k ups are weeded out.

BTW when I do a Flight Instructor rating the first 5 hours is a job interview. If in my opinion the student will not be a good instructor than the I will fire the student.

[GTODD]

BTW when I do a Flight Instructor rating the first 5 hours is a job interview. If in my opinion the student will not be a good instructor than the I will fire the student.

I know of a couple of class 2 instructors who were "fired" by their original class one instructor when they were a class 4 candidate. The explanation they were given was simillar to what BPF said. In the class 1's opinion they would not develop into a good instructor. However these two guys got a different class one instructor to finish their instructor rating and then went on to eventually become class 2's.

If the original class one instructor was correct then this proves loopa's original point that there are some class 2's out there who don't have a clue what they are doing.

...or it could also mean that some class 1's really should not be class 1's in the first place as they are sometimes too shortsighted to realise that the class 4 candidate might actually have the potential to be a reallly good instructor one day.

[Big Pistons Forever]

BTW when I do a Flight Instructor rating the first 5 hours is a job interview. If in my opinion the student will not be a good instructor than the I will fire the student.

...or it could also mean that some class 1's really should not be class 1's in the first place as they are sometimes too shortsighted to realise that the class 4 candidate might actually have the potential to be a reallly good instructor one day.

You raise a valid point, however my personal feeling is the Instructor must be competant and effective with their very first student. Some guys may have "potential" but I do not think they should use their early students as a pathway to eventually develop into "really good instructors one day".

Ultimately there is only a loose correlation between the class of Instructor and teaching competance. Just because a person holds a Class 2 rating, or a Class 1 for that matter, doesn't mean they are any good. After all 767 is a class 2 and based on what he posts he is IMO absolutely clueless,