Small plane at Germany flight show crashed into spectators;

[A Regulator]

BERLIN - A pilot of a small propeller-driven plane lost control of his aircraft while taking off at a flight show in southern Germany and crashed into a group of spectators Sunday, leaving one person dead and 38 injured, police said.

The crash occurred at the Lillinghof airfield about 20 miles (30 kilometres) northeast of the city of Nuremberg, where up to 5,000 people attended the flight show, German news agency ddp reported.

Five people were seriously injured, while 33 others were slightly injured, of whom 22 were taken to a hospital, a police spokesman said at a news conference. Among those hospitalized was a 7-year-old child.

Police said it was still unknown why the pilot of the roughly 70-year-old biplane — with two wings, one above the other — lost control of the aircraft and sped into a crowd of spectators.

The 68-year-old pilot was not hurt in the incident, ddp reported. But a 46-year-old woman died from her injuries at the airfield.

The flight show was to include stunts by small aircraft and sky divers, helicopter tours and tours with a Russian-built Antonov An-2 biplane, a program posted on the Lauf flight association's website said.

[Vipernorth]

Tell that to Bob Hoover - who in his 70s was much more of a safe/capable pilot than most pilots who are in their 30s.

[Hedley]

Tell that to Bob Hoover

+1

Plenty of aerobatic pilots under the age of 40 have screwed badly up and killed themselves and others.

Using your logic, I guess we should we ban all aerobatic pilots under the age of 40 from airshows


As a long-time ICAS card holder - who is both over 40, and under 65 - I might suggest that skill, not scalar age, be the determining factor for qualification to fly low-altitude aerobatics at airshows.

[linecrew]

It was a deHavilland Tiger Moth. My guess is that it was a strong(ish) crosswind as it's been said before that the bloody ailerons on the Tiger are more cosmetic than anything else. Don't think age played a key role in this so much as skill/circumstance.

[Hedley]

Ok, that's the second crash of a Tiger Moth in the last year that I know of that has resulted in serious injury.

Should we ground all Tiger Moths? Is it the aircraft that is the problem? (heavy sarcasm for the humour-challenged)

The point is that knee-jerk reactions are rarely non-idiotic.

[Old Dog Flying]

Well Said Hedley! The comments above sound like they came from a. a TC RAMO or b. A young military jock. And what about the yank-and-bank types that Busted the Air Cadets' L-19s at Comox 'cause they knew how to really fly..without tailwheel training? Should we ban taildraggers as well>

[tiggermoth]

but I say after age 65 (or whatever... 70), no more public airshow pilots.

Anybody know how old Bud Granley is. Not to many folks can throw a Harvard around like he can. Or a Yak 55 for that matter.

I think this is more of a case of having a lack of "safety distances" like we have in North America. Hedley would know more about the 500, 1000, 1500, foot showlines than me, but I believe here in Canada we also have a minimun distance from runway to crowd for takeoff and landing. It doesn't seen like they have these sorts of regulations in parts of Europe, I have seen videos of aerobatics being done directly overhead the crowd, people actually standing on the edges of the runway while planes are taking off and landing. Kind of scary.

[fleet16b]

On that 68 y-old pilot, it immediately raises the issue of age for aviation display flying and risk management. I hate to say it, but public display of aviation skills in front of masses should be regulated for age limit. Recognizing our own limits includes the realization that motor skills deteriorate rapidly with age, starting steeply after age 60, and even more so after age 65. Senior pilots can do aerobatics all they want privately - but for my $20 entry fee to some random airshow, I expect the "athletes" at the controls of these machines to be at the top of their game. Those who disagree can start throwing stones if you will but I say after age 65 (or whatever... 70), no more public airshow pilots.

Wow ! How blunt
So in keeping with that, here come some stones , so duck.
Edited - Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Don't get personal. Widow
Over the years I have seen many many young pilots that walk around thinking they are Hot Sh$t only to watch their egos and over zealous attitudes get the better of them in front of a crowd. Seen that many times with fighter jocks. Older pilots have had that problem also but much less than the young ones.
I am sorry but you don't have to be an "athelete" to fly a T/Moth .
Also most of the pilots that you see with the high end heavy metal aircraft ie warbirds etc are older pilots. Thats becuase they have the money to do so. The high majority of them are very professional experienced pilots many of who are over 65 yrs old.
Inline with Hedley's comments we might as well ban all airshows ...no more warbirds, Snowbirds, Blue Angels etc and lets not forget Race boats , Nascar , Motocross all of which have killed spectators (and coincidentally have under 65 participants)
While we are at it no more snowmobiles. They kill over every year in Canada.
Once those are all banned , we'll go after the car and drivers of all ages

Lets file this topic in the "beat the horse to death " category . It's been debated to death

[Big Pistons Forever]

Wow ! How blunt
So in keeping with that, here come some stones , so duck.
Edited - Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Don't get personal. Widow
Over the years I have seen many many young pilots that walk around thinking they are Hot Sh$t only to watch their egos and over zealous attitudes get the better of them in front of a crowd. Seen that many times with fighter jocks. Older pilots have had that problem also but much less than the young ones.
I am sorry but you don't have to be an "athelete" to fly a T/Moth .
Also most of the pilots that you see with the high end heavy metal aircraft ie warbirds etc are older pilots. Thats becuase they have the money to do so. The high majority of them are very professional experienced pilots many of who are over 65 yrs old.
Inline with Hedley's comments we might as well ban all airshows ...no more warbirds, Snowbirds, Blue Angels etc and lets not forget Race boats , Nascar , Motocross all of which have killed spectators (and coincidentally have under 65 participants)
While we are at it no more snowmobiles. They kill over every year in Canada.
Once those are all banned , we'll go after the car and drivers of all ages

Lets file this topic in the "beat the horse to death " category . It's been debated to death

Nope just a masochist, as the T Moth is possibly one of the worst handling aircraft ever built in large numbers. I personally do not get the hype over this POS airplane

[fleet16b]

Nope just a masochist, as the T Moth is possibly one of the worst handling aircraft ever built in large numbers. I personally do not get the hype over this POS airplane

Maybe so, yet it was the elementary trainer of choice of many Air Forces around the world and did an admirable job of introducing fledgling pilots to entry level flying skills.
It was an average a/c of the time. Comparing it to todays trainers is hardly fair.
One day in the future they will look at the C-150 as a crap trainer also.

[iflyforpie]

There is no point in beating the aviators and aircraft to death because no matter what, there are accidents and unforeseen circumstances.


The biggest point for increasing safety has already been made, the requirements for setbacks from show center. Jimmy Franklin's unfortunate accident in Red Deer serves to highlight the rationale (nobody is invincible) and effectiveness (nobody on the ground was hurt) of these rules...

[Old Dog Flying]

There is no point in beating the aviators and aircraft to death because no matter what, there are accidents and unforeseen circumstances.


The biggest point for increasing safety has already been made, the requirements for setbacks from show center. Jimmy Franklin's unfortunate accident in Red Deer serves to highlight the rationale (nobody is invincible) and effectiveness (nobody on the ground was hurt) of these rules...

I believe that was at Moose Jaw.

[iflyforpie]

Yes, Moose Jaw...

[fleet16b]

Wow ! How blunt
So in keeping with that, here come some stones , so duck.
Edited - Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Don't get personal. Widow
Over the years I have seen many many young pilots that walk around thinking they are Hot Sh$t only to watch their egos and over zealous attitudes get the better of them in front of a crowd. Seen that many times with fighter jocks. Older pilots have had that problem also but much less than the young ones.
I am sorry but you don't have to be an "athelete" to fly a T/Moth .
Also most of the pilots that you see with the high end heavy metal aircraft ie warbirds etc are older pilots. Thats becuase they have the money to do so. The high majority of them are very professional experienced pilots many of who are over 65 yrs old.
Inline with Hedley's comments we might as well ban all airshows ...no more warbirds, Snowbirds, Blue Angels etc and lets not forget Race boats , Nascar , Motocross all of which have killed spectators (and coincidentally have under 65 participants)
While we are at it no more snowmobiles. They kill over every year in Canada.
Once those are all banned , we'll go after the car and drivers of all ages

Lets file this topic in the "beat the horse to death " category . It's been debated to death

Nope just a masochist, as the T Moth is possibly one of the worst handling aircraft ever built in large numbers. I personally do not get the hype over this POS airplane

Sounds to me like you have either never flown one or have never learned how to fly one properly but mostly I get the feel that you are most likely a nose wheel(training wheel) instructor with a hate of for tail draggers .

[Big Pistons Forever]

Actually I have lots of tailwheel time in a range of aircraft from light bugsmashers (j3/7AC/C140/Luscombe) to heavier stuff (Beech 18 and Airtractor 802). I am also a current Class 1 Instructor and no I do not have a "hate on for taildraggers ,quite the opposite in fact. I will acknowlledge I only have have one hour in a Tiger Moth, though, and have no great desire for any more because it had such sloppy unresponsive controls and an engine best suited to anchoring a boat, not powering an aircraft. Pretty much everyone I have met who thought it was such great aircraft have never actualy flown in one...... but if I have offended you with my less than flattering description, then I am sorry.

[Shiny Side Up]

Five people were seriously injured, while 33 others were slightly injured, of whom 22 were taken to a hospital,

I almost have to ask if any of the injuries had to do with people being struck by the airplane or were they all just people trampling each other in an effort to get out of the way? Either way a Tiger Moth is pretty small and pretty slow, since it doesn't seem like it got airborne, you also have to wonder how slow of foot anyone was who actually did get hit by it. I somehow doubt that the people were tightly packed enough for the airplane to be responsible for injuring all thirty-eight of them.

[fleet16b]

Actually I have lots of tailwheel time in a range of aircraft from light bugsmashers (j3/7AC/C140/Luscombe) to heavier stuff (Beech 18 and Airtractor 802). I am also a current Class 1 Instructor and no I do not have a "hate on for taildraggers ,quite the opposite in fact. I will acknowlledge I only have have one hour in a Tiger Moth, though, and have no great desire for any more because it had such sloppy unresponsive controls and an engine best suited to anchoring a boat, not powering an aircraft. Pretty much everyone I have met who thought it was such great aircraft have never actualy flown in one...... but if I have offended you with my less than flattering description, then I am sorry.

No problem , I am not offended by your assessment of an aircraft that you only have one hour on. Sounds to me like you flew one that was maybe a little long in the tooth or not well rigged, Either way one hour hardly gives you time needed to properly asses any aircraft. Hope you are a little more patient when assessing students.
We have 4 Tmoths in our stable and have never had problems with any of them, flying wise or engine wise.
With over to 2k hrs on vintage airplanes alone, my advice would be to give them a chance and don't let one bad flight turn you so bitter towards them.
The Tmoths were chosen by the RCAF because they were more responsive than other variants in use. They produced more pilots in the BCATP than any other type so they were not that bad. Either way you cannot compare them to aircraft that came much later.

[Old Dog Flying]

I operated a Tiger Moth for a good many hours and enjoyed it very much. Yes it is a hand full and will bite your butt if you are not flying it until it is tied down but it is a grand old aircraft. And I've known more than a few Class 1s who really could not co-ordinate head, hands and feet in an aintique aircraft .

And as far as age goes, just remember the old...there are no old,bold pilots...

[Big Pistons Forever]

pm sent