"Ground to flightdeck..."

[yyz monkey]

Hello there guys & gals,

Just your friendly, neighbourhood ramp monkey with a few questions pertaining to things on the pushback that have got me wondering..

1) How early do you like to pop the brakes? It's my understanding that this starts the clock rolling on pay for the crew on board. Is that correct?

2) Occasionally, I'll call up with the "Ground to flightdeck.." and get "Cockpit to ground.." in reply. Do you all have any preference? (Just a note, I only call up with 'flightdeck' as it's on the little laminated card we have detailing how the conversation generally goes). Should I actually be calling up with 'cockpit'? Does it matter in any way?

3) As part of the conversation prior to the push commencing, I'll be told "Holding engine start until advised." by you (the flightdeck crew). I'll commence the pushback and be heading out to the lane only to be asked a few moments later if it's ok to start the engines (I haven't advised you yet in this case). Why am I getting that question if you've told me that you'll hold engine start until advised? Am I impacting things in any way? Should I be calling for it earlier if that is the case? (As a note, I generally hold the 'clear for engine start' call until I get the engines out to the roadway - just for the sake of those driving around the tail of stand road that don't understand that ACL ON=ENGINES MIGHT BE IN OPERATION/AIRCRAFT IS MOVING and I'd hate to see a truck/tractor/belt & its occupant(s) blown over or get blasted with exhaust).

Just some thoughts rolling through the head of this ramper about how things work. Feedback is greatly appreciated

[Martin Tamme]

1) How early do you like to pop the brakes? It's my understanding that this starts the clock rolling on pay for the crew on board. Is that correct?

In accordance with the new policy, the brakes can only be released once the Load Data Final (LDF) have arrived. This is because some Leads weren't sending their numbers in on time, causing some take-off delays. As a result, the Flight Crews are now supposed to act as managers to ensure the ground staff are doing their job properly. If a flight is now delayed due to the lateness of the LDF, an investigation will be launched to find out why the numbers weren't sent in on time.

Nevertheless, after having said the above, there are circumstances where the brakes have to be released early for airmanship reasons. For example:

In LHR, most of the gates are on an inclined ramp. As such, the wheels get wedged into the chocks, making them impossible to be removed. Quite frequently, the ramp crew asks us to release the brakes (with the tow tractor attached), so that they can rock the airplane back & forth in order to dislodge the chocks (which can take sometimes up to 2 minutes).

In ZRH, they have one of those tow tractors which lifts the nose-wheel onto the tractor. While they do this, they ask us to release the brakes.

2) Occasionally, I'll call up with the "Ground to flightdeck.." and get "Cockpit to ground.." in reply. Do you all have any preference? (Just a note, I only call up with 'flightdeck' as it's on the little laminated card we have detailing how the conversation generally goes). Should I actually be calling up with 'cockpit'? Does it matter in any way?

Although that little laminated card may be SOPs, it is more or less meant for the stations where their understanding of the English language is limited. At those stations, it becomes very dangerous to deviate from that little card, because a lot of them will be lost in the translation. Maybe it might be the same you if you are pushing back non-Air Canada airplanes (where English is not a first language for the flight crew). Personally, if your comprehension of the English language is good, I couldn't care less.

3) As part of the conversation prior to the push commencing, I'll be told "Holding engine start until advised." by you (the flightdeck crew). I'll commence the pushback and be heading out to the lane only to be asked a few moments later if it's ok to start the engines (I haven't advised you yet in this case). Why am I getting that question if you've told me that you'll hold engine start until advised? Am I impacting things in any way? Should I be calling for it earlier if that is the case? (As a note, I generally hold the 'clear for engine start' call until I get the engines out to the roadway - just for the sake of those driving around the tail of stand road that don't understand that ACL ON=ENGINES MIGHT BE IN OPERATION/AIRCRAFT IS MOVING and I'd hate to see a truck/tractor/belt & its occupant(s) blown over or get blasted with exhaust).

Again, at some of those stations where their English is limited, we mostly get a "Royer" to everything. For example:

- "How are you doing?"
- "Royer"

Although we tell you that we are holding engine start as advised, at some stations we sometimes get the feeling that they didn't comprehend, and we have to ask after a substantial time has elapsed.

Nevertheless in North America, we sometimes get a new pushback person who may have forgotten. So what's the harm in asking? All you have to say is "Not yet, I've got to manoeuver out of the way so that you don't blast that RJ behind you." Or you can just say "Royer".

[land3]

Martin's points are all true, but I think you are after a bit more detail. I offer a few more thoughts regarding pushback and communications that address a few of the points you have brought up.

1. Yes, the pay clock starts ticking the second the brakes are released and all the doors are closed. When the park brake is released is a decision made by the Captain in all cases, and in the case of releasing the park brake before the appropriate time as directed by SOP’s, pay is usually the great motivator to do so, amongst other things like what Martin has mentioned. Officially, we are guided by our FOM (Flight Operations Manual), and this is the official policy:

The Captain will establish the out time of the flight (usually with park
brake release) when pushback clearance has been received. Should the
Ramp crew and the Flight Crew be ready for pushback and ATC advise
of a delay for pushback, the park brake should not be released. When
ATC provides a pushback clearance, release the park brake. Advise the
lead of the reason for the delay.

2. There is no preference to what you may want to say to initiate the communications with the cockpit/flight deck. It doesn’t really matter.
However, some calls are specifically required. The first one is after you initiate direct communications with us, you should then follow that with your SOP call (refer to your Publication 70 Ramp Operations, chapter 5 Arrivals and Departures) "COMMUNICATIONS CHECK, CONFIRM BRAKES SET" . We should then reply with the proper response, "COMMUNICATION OK, BRAKES SET".

3. You are absolutely right about the engine start calls during pushback. The Captain has been told that you will advise him when he should start engines, and he should not be mentioning it again until you call back. Only YOU know what is happening behind and around the aircraft and YOU are responsible for safety on the ramp during the pushback and engine start. Don’t be talked into something you feel is unsafe, and don’t be afraid to repeat yourself, this time a little more forcefully, “I WILL ADVISE YOU WHEN TO START ENGINES”. He will get the message, believe me.

The best advice that you can have, is know your SOP’s, follow them religiously, use the proper calls as laid out in your SOP’s, and you just might stay out of the bosses office the rest of your days on the ramp.

[ywger]

Hey monkey - great post.. The more communication we have between our respective groups, the better. I'll do my best to answer your questions, but keep in mind, I'm a former emj fo, turned 767 rp, so my answers will be limited to sop knowlege/real world observations. In other words, I'm rarely the guy talking to you.

1) We start getting paid when the brakes are released (as long as all the doors are closed). This generally means that we are as motivated as you are to get the show on the road - although safety is priority no. 1. That being said, if the aforementioned parameters are met, but we haven't received our final load figures, we generally won't release the brakes. The company doesn't want us reviewing paperwork with the brakes off. IMHO, it's their way of cutting down on early brake releases.

2) flightdeck is the proper term... cockpit is more coloquial. You can definitely use them interchangably.

3) When it comes to starting engines, you are the one with the big picture, so hold it off as long as you see fit. Often, we're itchy to go, but asking you if we can start is often akin to asking 'are we there yet?' while on a road trip. While our intentions are good, when we start the engines has little impact on the big picture (within reason, ofcourse), so do not feel rushed by such an inquiry, especially if you feel that it's in the interest of safety to hold off the start for a bit (esp. with the bigger aircraft).

Hope that clarifies things for you! Now here's a question for you.. As nit picky as it may be. Are you taught to say 'brakes set' when you want us to set the brakes? Because most ppl say that, whereas it seems to me that the proper verbage would be 'set brakes'. I've often scratched my head over that one...

[yyz monkey]

Martin, Land3 & Ywger,

Thanks for the replies! It definitely helps shed light on what goes on up top while I'm in the tractor below.

I'll do my best to answer your questions, but keep in mind, I'm a former emj fo, turned 767 rp, so my answers will be limited to sop knowlege/real world observations.

No worries, I appreciate the reply. I push everything from the DHC-8s up to the 777s (oddly, have yet to push a 330), so a wide range of perspectives is a good thing to have.

The company doesn't want us reviewing paperwork with the brakes off. IMHO, it's their way of cutting down on early brake releases.

I guess it would depend on the intent behind it, whether or not it's a good policy. If it's in the interest of safety, absolutely, but if it's self-serving to cut down on early brake releases, not so much.

2) flightdeck is the proper term... cockpit is more coloquial. You can definitely use them interchangably.

Good to know! I find it varies among the fleets - I tend to hear 'cockpit' more so when dealing with wide bodies than with the narrow bodies.

Often, we're itchy to go, but asking you if we can start is often akin to asking 'are we there yet?' while on a road trip.

That perfectly describes how it feels when I get the call.

While our intentions are good, when we start the engines has little impact on the big picture (within reason, of course), so do not feel rushed by such an inquiry, especially if you feel that it's in the interest of safety to hold off the start for a bit (esp. with the bigger aircraft).

Oh, I never feel rushed - the fact that I've got a couple (very expensive) tons of metal/composite/fuel/cargo/people five feet off the cab of my tractor ensures that I'll usually reply with a request to 'standby' (if it'll just be a little further) or 'negative, standby' if we're barely off the gate. For the narrow bodies, we can get you guys lit up early (I'll usually get you started at the roadway, as I mentioned) - with the wide bodies, we have to hold the start until we're out on the line and have you stopped and brakes set (we'll also do this with the narrow bodies in the winter, when the ramp is slippery).

Now here's a question for you.. As nit picky as it may be. Are you taught to say 'brakes set' when you want us to set the brakes? Because most ppl say that, whereas it seems to me that the proper verbage would be 'set brakes'. I've often scratched my head over that one...

I've never been taught to say 'brake set' when I want you to set your brakes. The only time I'll say 'brakes set' is in reply to your 'brakes set' call. My end of pushback call is usually 'Pushback complete, set your brakes please.'

The best advice that you can have, is know your SOP’s, follow them religiously, use the proper calls as laid out in your SOP’s, and you just might stay out of the bosses office the rest of your days on the ramp.

Oh, they'll haul us in even when we follow the SOPs religiously - but that's what saves our bacon.

[JayDee]

Hope that clarifies things for you! Now here's a question for you.. As nit picky as it may be. Are you taught to say 'brakes set' when you want us to set the brakes? Because most ppl say that, whereas it seems to me that the proper verbage would be 'set brakes'. I've often scratched my head over that one...

I have always interpreted - "Set Brakes" as a command so the person initiating communication ( in this case ground )should use it and " Brakes Set" would be the proper response to the command.

Just my $.02

JayDee

[Dockjock]

Ditto for the Set Brakes/Brakes Set. But I don't think that is the way our SOP reads. I interpret the SOP wording, namely Brakes Set/Brakes Set to mean:

Tractor: [The] Brakes [on the tug are] Set
Aircraft: [The] Brakes [on the aircraft are] Set.

From my experience if one were to make an audio recording of the best SOP adherence from a tractor driver in North America, it would be the dude at ORD. He is always bang on.

[Clyde River]

There is a WIDE variety of calls. My flights are mostly overseas, I think that LHR is not one of the worst vis the coms. The crews I normally deal with usually start every exchange with "Ground to cockpit"...then you have to say something like "go ahead" or go straight to a patter of "brakes set" or whatever. It's very unwieldy when there is a wide disparity in the lingo between stations. That's not very comfortable when you understand the potential for a major FUBAR.

CR

[PilotFlying]

AWESOME dialogue! Thanks, yyz monkey, for posting your questions. I don't have much to add to what the guys above have already said, but I think there is something we can all learn from these-type discussions. This is the kind of stuff that should REALLY be in ART.

Cheers,

Chris

[Sumimasen]

Ramp..."PUSHBACK COMPLETE, CONFIRM WHEN BRAKES SET"
Capt..."BRAKES SET, CONFIRM WHEN PINS REMOVED"

[yyz monkey]

Ramp..."PUSHBACK COMPLETE, CONFIRM WHEN BRAKES SET"
Capt..."BRAKES SET, CONFIRM WHEN PINS REMOVED"

That's exactly as it's stated on my card. I prefer to go with the 'Pushback complete, set your brakes please' to be a little less terse, but it communicates the same intent.

AWESOME dialogue! Thanks, yyz monkey, for posting your questions.

No problem, Chris! I figure the clearer view of the big picture we have, the better off we all are.

Next question: Is YYZ the only field that doesn't turn on the apron taxi line lights? It's a pet peeve of mine about their operation as it makes it difficult to push at night (hard to pick up the line until you're almost on top of it when pushing from certain gates).

[PilotFlying]

Next question: Is YYZ the only field that doesn't turn on the apron taxi line lights? It's a pet peeve of mine about their operation as it makes it difficult to push at night (hard to pick up the line until you're almost on top of it when pushing from certain gates).

YYZ is actually one of the few airports (in Canada, at least) that even has apron taxi line lighting. YVR just underwent an upgrade, but other than that I can't think of any. Those lights are generally only used in low visibility operations, as visibilities approach 2600 RVR (1/2 SM). The same goes for all the taxiway centreline lighting. On a normal night, all we get are the blue edge lights. Once we're lined up with the centreline, the taxi light lights it up quite well. But that's where your problem is - until you're lined up with the line, your headlights don't do anything for you. We sort of have the same problem sometimes when approaching a gate centreline at night. If it's a wet night, sometimes it's near impossible to see until you're actually in line with it. That's where good marshalling comes in!

Cheers,

Chris

[yyz monkey]

We sort of have the same problem sometimes when approaching a gate centreline at night. If it's a wet night, sometimes it's near impossible to see until you're actually in line with it. That's where good marshalling comes in!

Agreed. Visibility on the ramp is poor when it's wet outside. Driving becomes especially dangerous as the lane lines just disappear on the wet concrete. And that's when we're out, standing on the lead in line, wands lit, marking the line for the incoming flights

But it could be worse. It could be fog as thick as pea soup

[FastFlyBy]

A decade ago when I worked the ramp at YVR for Hudson General, we would sometimes have difficulty completing the pushback with some of our tugs with all engines started on a widebody. The pace would slow to a crawl and we have to have ask for brakes set whether pushback was complete or not. A couple of times I was afraid the plane would start pushing the tug, hope they've replaced those POS by now.

It was always an irritant with Air Transat because their procedure at the time called for the maintenance supervisor to wear the headset instead of the driver. Not being able to communicate with the flight deck myself always made me a little uneasy, especially when that third engine on the L1011 started up and we slowed down to 'old man pushing a walker' pace.

[Eric Janson]

I don't fly for a Canadian Airline but I do fly Internationally to countries where the level of English is very poor. Standard communications are very important to prevent misunderstandings.

Here's the Expat perspective.

1) How early do you like to pop the brakes? It's my understanding that this starts the clock rolling on pay for the crew on board. Is that correct?

I don't get paid by the hour so it makes no difference. Depending on the Airport I will release the brakes as soon as I tell Ground that we are ready for pushback to prevent them pushing the aircraft with the parking brake still set. I've been pushed without getting the call to release the brakes on more than one occasion.

2) Occasionally, I'll call up with the "Ground to flightdeck.." and get "Cockpit to ground.." in reply. Do you all have any preference? (Just a note, I only call up with 'flightdeck' as it's on the little laminated card we have detailing how the conversation generally goes). Should I actually be calling up with 'cockpit'? Does it matter in any way?

I'll use whatever Ground comes with first. If they use "cockpit" I'll do the same. Makes no difference to me either way.

3) As part of the conversation prior to the push commencing, I'll be told "Holding engine start until advised." by you (the flightdeck crew). I'll commence the pushback and be heading out to the lane only to be asked a few moments later if it's ok to start the engines (I haven't advised you yet in this case). Why am I getting that question if you've told me that you'll hold engine start until advised? Am I impacting things in any way? Should I be calling for it earlier if that is the case? (As a note, I generally hold the 'clear for engine start' call until I get the engines out to the roadway - just for the sake of those driving around the tail of stand road that don't understand that ACL ON=ENGINES MIGHT BE IN OPERATION/AIRCRAFT IS MOVING and I'd hate to see a truck/tractor/belt & its occupant(s) blown over or get blasted with exhaust).

Just a suggestion - why not tell the crew at what point they will be getting engine start (eg:- after pushback completed)? You could also tell them why - don't forget the view from the flightdeck is rather limited. I think that should make things easier for everyone.

[yyz monkey]

This one is for the Embraer drivers in YYZ..

So, I'm on midnights currently and, as part of my occasional duties, I'll be asked to perform a water audit on the overnighting aircraft to ensure that they're being filled to SOP for the morning kickoff departures.

Typically, the Embraers usually end up being about 3/4 full when I check them (SOP states they're to go out full on every flight) and it's usually due to cabin services having been on to clean prior. Just to be sure however, do any of you request a top up in the mornings before departure?

As well, what would cause a 'Bleed 2 Leak' caution on the EICAS while the aircraft is on the gate? I was checking 303 earlier this week and while I was at the back, the caution came on. The aircraft was on the gate with full ground support (GPU, conditioned air).

[bcflyer]

Most times a top up will be requested. If its not caught till just prior to push (the F/A's don't always look at the guage right away) and its a short flight we may go without topping it up depending on the Captain. To be honest, its a bit of a piss off if we get into an airplane first thing in the morning and its not topped up like its supposed to be. My suggestion is that if you find it in any condition other than full, fill it. It will be much appreciated by the crews taking it out in the AM!!

As for your bleed caution question, I've never seen it in that configuration. A bleed leak caution light would indicate an overheat of either the pack or the bleed system. If I remember I'll ask a maintence guy about it next time I see one. Of course it may turn out that its just a glitch and would more than likely go away once APU was started. (Emb has a few of those little glitches... lol)