Pilot in the Canadian Forces

[Maelstrom]

First a little background:

I've been thinking about becoming a pilot in the Canadian Forces for a long time. I feel like it will be an excellent and unique experience that I wouldn't be able to attain through any other aviation career. I'm currently working towards a degree and a commercial pilot's license in Southern Ontario. I've done a lot of research and I'm aware of most if not all of the various entry plans for pilots, and I am currently leaning towards DEO. I chose not to do ROTP because coming right out of high school I felt was not prepared to make the decision to join the CF for 12 years. Also I wanted to actually get some flight training under my belt to be sure it was something I wanted to do.

Last year I called a medical officer in the Toronto and arranged a meeting, i was just curious if my eye sight was good enough to be a pilot under the new vision standards. Unfortunately after a 2 min meeting, he informed me my sight was slightly under the minimum requirements, and I would have to get laser eye surgery to enter the CF as a pilot. I decided to check out a laser eye surgery place near my home for a free consultation, and was informed that due to thin corneas, I would have to get the PRK procedure.

Throughout all my research, I didn't find many opinions of pilots in the Canadian Forces, so that's why I'm posting here! What do the current or former CF pilots think about flying for the CF? What did you think of the work environment, flying time, etc. I read that a pilot flying a fast jet in the CF usually flies about 200h a year, but what about rotary wing and multi. engine?

Is there still a decent chance of me getting in if I did choose to undergo the PRK procedure, and apply for DEO? Or do they prefer to hire 20/20 uncorrected vision for the most part?

I have also looked into joining the Air Reserve in the United States because I read that they hire more pilots and their pilots fly more hours (could be wrong). I would choose reserves in the US because I can then have a dual US/Canadian citizenship, where as if I joined the regular US Air Force I would have to denounce my Canadian citizenship. Any opinions/experience in the USAF/Air Reserve as a pilot would also be appreciated.

Thanks to any replies, they are much appreciated.

[bandaid]

Welcome and good luck with your career choices.

[North Shore]

Welcome.

I respect your desire to get into the Military, and it does seem like pretty cool flying, whatever route you choose...BUT, I'd be pretty leery of getting your eyes lasered. Someone's got to be the 1% who ends up with complications - are you prepared for it to be you? And, what are the long-term effects of the surgeries? Remember, they've only been around for ~ 20 years, and while the technology is constantly evolving, there could be unforeseen difficulties 30, 40 etc years later..It's not like a tattoo, where if you get tired of it, you can get it removed - this is a major alteration of your major sense...

Good luck with your career however you choose..

[petpad]

Don't know what the PRK procedure is, but I am quite sure laser surgery is quite safe these days. There is an immense sense of pride and satisfaction to be a CF pilot, and I can sense you already know this and you want this. You probably know as wel that it is an officer job first, and a pilot job in second. You sign on as a servant to the Crown, and you will do a shitload of crap the bus drivers at Porter and Jazz never get to do. You will endure minutia, you will have to do professional courses and ground jobs in dangerous places, but in the end, the sense of belonging to this unique and exclusive group will far surpass those feelings. You will fly a lot less in the CF as you would in civvy street, but being a CF pilot is being a top gun in every sense of the words. It's quite a different career path, much tougher, and it all depends on you.

[trampbike]

Welcome on the forum Maelstrom.

I applied for pilot through ROTP (civilian university) in May 2010. I currently am in the selection process. I did the CFAT 2 weeks ago and have my interview and medical next week. I'll try to help you as much as I can, and I hope that people with much more knowledge and experience than me (like AuxBatOn, an active CF-18 pilot) will throw in their advices.

I would highly recommend you the http://www.army.ca forums. I spent days and days of reading and learned a lot about the Canadian Forces and the pilot career. Going to your nearest recruiting center sure is a good way to gather basic information, but the forums offer a whole lot of insight and for anything very specific, it's unlikely your recruiter knows much unless he was himself a pilot or aircrew. Little advise: read a lot and do thorough research before posting questions on army.ca, because it is very likely that what you want to ask has already been asked and answered in previous threads. Be careful with the writing too.

You might also want to read this: http://frombootcamptoflying.blogspot.com/
The guy who wrote this was also DEO. He sadly was not able to get through BFT.

As you probably know, one of the most important element of the selection process is at Aircrew Selection Center (ASC), 8 Wing Trenton. You get to do I think 4 missions (the last one being the very important one) on a basic airplane simulator. Don't get fooled by the fact you "know" how to fly. Apparently it has little to no effect on your success in the sim. About half of the people fail at ASC. If you want to try again, you have to wait one year AND you have to get a higher civilian licence (people with no previous flight experience have to get a PPL, a PPL holder need a CPL...). If you already have your CPL, you'll have to wait until the ATPL before applying again. Ratings like IFR or instructor don't count! Long wait! Too long if you ask me. Of course I don't plan to fail, but in case things go south, I'll only have to do my commercial flight test (I have the hours and the written exam done) et voilà, I have my CPL and am ready to apply in 2011.

I don't have much experience yet with the whole selection process, but I'll comment about what I did experience so far:
1. Be patient! I applied on May 12. I was told I should get a call from the CFRC by the end of May. I called back in June and was told to expect news by end of June. I called back in July and was told to wait until September. They finally called me in September to schedule my CFAT.
2. The CFAT is important. No one knows how much you need to score in each of the three section of the test. To be an officer you need to score high. Be at your best. No matter how good you think you are in language, spatio-visual and problem solving, prepare well. There is a little practise exam on forces.ca. You should be able to do this fake test in just a couple of minutes and score quite high. The real test is longer and a bit harder. I thought CFAT would be a piece of cake, but I was still a bit worried because you can never know how you will react under stress and time constraint. Overall, I was surprised by the small amount of time allowed to complete each section. I was able to complete everything with a bit of spare time for a fast revision. I made only one mistake out of 60 questions, which is great, but yet I did not find the test easy. I had to put all my concentration and effort into it.
3. My interview is Wednesday. I prepared for it and I still am. I know the selection process from A to Z. I know all the phases of basic training and pilot training. I know where every Wings are in Canada, what aircrafts they use and what they do. I know why I want to join and I know what they expect of me. I know a bit about the CF history and their current status. If I would have been interviewed a year ago, I would have failed miserably, because I only had a vague idea of all the things I just mentioned. Now I think I'm more ready, but you know what? everyone serious about becoming a pilot in the CF is just as much and even more ready than I am.

From what I understand, if you satisfy the minimum requirement for vision, it's not a factor anymore in the selection process.

I wish you good luck for the eye surgery! For the process of becoming a CF pilot, I don't think luck will be a factor, so I won't wish you luck for that .
Work hard and be patient. Not everyone makes the cut on the first attempt; I guess you have to be ready to try again and again.

Olivier
[edit: spelling]

[Gannet167]

Be very careful with laser eye surgery. There was a time when it was strictly forbidden for CF pilots and applicants. Guys who had their eyes "fixed" were not even given a chance to try out, those that neglected to tell anyone and made it through the selection process to where they take a scan of your eye were found out and immediately kicked out of the selection - and told not to bother applying again. The policy on laser eye surgery may have changed, BUT, I seriously doubt this. There was a change a few years ago where you no longer needed 20/20 to apply, you now only need to be corrected to 20/20 (ie, you can wear glasses) however, I believe this will preclude an applicant from flying fighters.

The guy at the recruiting center, generally speaking, knows absolutely nothing about the pilot job in the CF and will feed you an immense amount of BS. It's not intentional, they just don't have all the specific details of every single training system's current status. Whatever the CF policy is on laser surgery, you will be able to find out by calling a CF flight surgeon. If laser eye surgery is approved, there will certainly be a very specific order detailing which procedure is approved, who can get it etc. I would be very, very surprised if someone who gets laser eye surgery would be considered.

[TheCheez]

While I don't disagree that recruiters are sometimes a few steps behind on what life is like back at the squadrons they will absolutely know the vision requirements for pilots. Probably because they get asked so frequently, and the change is only a few years old and was a very big deal when it happened. Each of the major recruiting centres should also have medical personnel on staff who do the initial medical for your application. They too will know the requirements. Please don't bother the flight surgeons with this nonsense.

btw: http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?topic=72796.0

[Maelstrom]

At my medical I was told that I could get laser eye surgery and apply after a certain amount of time with stable vision (I think it was 3 or 6 months but I do not remember exactly). I was also told that there are only some laser procedures which were allowed. I was given a list of theses and PRK (which is what I'm told I need) is acceptable.
I was also told that if I had the procedure done, and was accepted into the Canadian Forces as a pilot, I would not be permitted to fly fast jets because the effects of high G forces on those who have had laser eye surgery is not well known. (This didn't bother me anyway because I did not have any interest in fast jets anyhow)

[Justin.Case]

Can anyone answer the above question regarding how many hours various CF pilots fly per year? When I applied I remember that it wasn't very much but that was ten years ago now. Time sure does fly!!

Back then I also looked into flying for the USAF but they only except officers as well. Unfortunately to be an officer in the United States Military you must be a US citizen. As far as I know, the only non-commissioned officers flying in the US military are combat helicopter pilots within the US Army. I entertained the idea of applying anyways with the intention of transferring once I obtained my citizenship but then the invasion of Iraq started and I wanted no part of that.

More recently I attended FlightSafety in Wichita with nothing but USAF guys on my course. The Caravan course was just "busy work" for them and they complained endlessly how at slow it flew. And yet there I was, being bonded into this course and at the time I thought the Caravan was a real rocket ship when compared to everything else I had flown up to then. In all honesty, I harbored a fair amount of jealousy for them! They had so many options starting from entry methods and aircraft types to bases and deployments!! They made decent money. Not to mention that everywhere we went there was some sort of "Service Discount" and random people would constantly thank them for their service! If only the CF had so many options!

At the end of the day though, it was the Canadian who took the girls home from the bar! And that my friends is what really matters!!

[Meatservo]

I can sense you already know this and you want this. You probably know as wel that it is an officer job first, and a pilot job in second... you will do a shitload of crap the bus drivers at Porter and Jazz never get to do.

I know I should know better by now than to take umbrage at statements like this, but this sounds like an AMWAY pitch. My first thought when I read this eloquence was, I guess they've removed the "gentleman" part from the officer requirements.

A lot of guys will quote you some attrition statistics as an indication of the quality of training you will receive, the exclusivity of the group you will belong to, etc. I think if wanting to be "better" than the "bus drivers" on Civvy street is your motivation for being a military pilot, you should grow up a bit before joining. A capacity for realistic introspection just might save your life one day as a pilot, military or not. A lot of those bus drivers graduated from schools back in the 80s and 90s that only graduated about a quarter of those who were selected (from thousands) to attend. Review posts here on "AvCanada" to get a sense of how much respect graduating from college or university will get you from the aviation community. Of course, attrition rates at these fine establishments are much lower than they used to be, while the CF is still holding the line, so read into this what you will. You can't win if trying to be a "big shot" is your reason for wanting to fly.

Having said that, I consider the Canadian Forces to be an honourable career goal. It will be completely different to being a civilian pilot, and I've often wondered myself what it would have been like. I have to admit I didn't quote the entirety of PetPad's post because I sort of agree with the rest of it. There are jobs in the civilian world that can satisfy your taste for danger and adventure, too, but so far I've never come home with the feeling of having stood for something the way Canadian Forces members do. They give more than they get paid for. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[UKPilot]

3. My interview is Wednesday. I prepared for it and I still am. I know the selection process from A to Z. I know all the phases of basic training and pilot training. I know where every Wings are in Canada, what aircrafts they use and what they do. I know why I want to join and I know what they expect of me. I know a bit about the CF history and their current status. If I would have been interviewed a year ago, I would have failed miserably, because I only had a vague idea of all the things I just mentioned. Now I think I'm more ready, but you know what? everyone serious about becoming a pilot in the CF is just as much and even more ready than I am.


[edit: spelling]

A bit of a thread jack in a way, but I thought I would pass on a question I was asked in my interview that really caught me off guard; not that it didn't make sense but rather because I hadn't really thought about it in the way it was asked. The interviewer asked me, "As an officer in the Canadian Forces, there may be a situation where you are in command and to complete the mission you will have to give an order knowing that as a result some people will lose their lives. Would you be able to do this?"

ASC is pretty much as you described it. 4 missions each increasing in difficulty. As you correctly mentioned, having flying experience doesn't really give you an advantage as its geared towards all experience levels. The best advice I received before I went was to practice my instrument scan which freed up precious mental capacity (anyone who knows me can tell you how important this is!) increasing my situational awareness.

Best of luck in the interview! Sounds like you're more than prepared.

[alctel]

On a similar theme as the above post, when I was being interviewed for a pilot in the RAF the guy asked me 'Could you kill someone if we ordered you to?'

That kind of took me aback, and I thought about it for a bit and said 'I probably could if I agreed with the cause maybe'

And he said 'well, it doesn't work like that' and that was the end of that. As it turned out, I'm glad that question was asked and that I answered it honestly.

But something to think about!

[TheCheez]

Just to round up a few posts:

Meatservo - I should probably know better than to wade into your pissing match, so I won't.

As far as the interview goes I was never asked about killing people but the CF has a more pointy/officer first -pilot second focus since I joined. It's important to think about even if you're not asked.

Maelstrom - hours vary widely by fleet and even within the fleet. If you're counting on rounding up 4000hrs by the end of your service so you can go fly with big red or something I would recommend you have a very solid plan B that you'd be happy with. I'd say the range is anywhere from 150-700hrs/yr with certain lucky individuals in operational fleets(C130/C17/TacHel) at the high end. While you're in training you will get just enough to do the courses, less than 200 in an airplane, over 4-5 years. You will also get ground tours or put in jobs where flying is more of a secondary duty and be lucky to stay current.

[Alpha Crit]

Maelstrom, I spent 20 years as a Canadian Forces pilot ('72 - '92). In a nutshell, I enjoyed every minute of it. The training is as good as it gets. It has its tribulations, like any endeavour, but the camaraderie, the security, the excitement , it's great! Go for it! And good luck!

[trampbike]

Alpha Crit, what did you fly? Can you tell us a bit more about your duties not directly related to flying?

Thanks
Olivier

[Alpha Crit]

I did my basic wings training on the Tutor jet in Moose Jaw. My first operational tour was on Grumman Trackers with 880 Squadron out of Shearwater, Nova Scotia. It was a great first tour. Lots of good, hard IFR in nasty weather. Our primary role was sovereignty patrols of Canada's coastal waters out to 200 miles. Basically, we'd be given a large chunk of ocean to patrol. We'd head out for about 6 hours, typically, with two pilots and one AESOP (radar operator), and record everything that was happening in that chunk of ocean. Lots of down low ops ... we'd typically be at 100' on the radalt while the copilot read the names off the fishing boats. One thing to note, this was the 70's, so no fancy nav stuff. It was all a "dead reckoning" plot with a big sea chart, an E6B "confuser", and a pencil. Lots of work for the cojo. Nav errors in the order of 70 nm after a 6 hour patrol were not unusual. Eventually, we got Omega nav, but that was towards the end of my tour. I remember being shocked at how quick the upgrade to "crew commander" came. One day you're an innocent copilot, next thing you know you're a young 20's "crew commander", mixing it up with the Soviet intelligence gatherers in the North Atlantic.

As far as secondary duties went, each squadron had a flight safety section, a training section, an operations section, and what have you. You might find yourself manning the ops desk, or preparing a flight safety lecture, or designing a better way to deliver weaponry. In the Tracker, we had the ability to drop the Mark 54 depth bomb, and to fire 2.75" rockets. Every six months or so, we'd have a RocketEx or BombEx where we'd all have to head out to the range to qualify. Tons of fun. In the late 70's, I had the opportunity to fire high explosive rockets at a part of an oil tanker that had broken up off the east coast, and had become a hazard to navigation. Also had lots of great trips to Bermuda for various naval support exercises.

My second tour was instructing on the Beech Musketeer in Portage la Prairie. There was a set of heel marks from Halifax to Portage, because I did not want to go. That's one thing about military life ... you go where you're needed, not necessarily where you want to be. That being said, I quickly discovered that I enjoyed instructing, and was quite good at it. Chris Hadfield, Canadian astronaut and soon-to-be commander of the International Space Station, was one of my first students. As far as secondary duties went, I was appointed as Course Director (essentially ... "Mother") to all the students who came through. I also tried out for, and made, the Musket Gold formation demonstration team. Essentially, we'd do our job during the week, and on weekends would head off to Duluth or "Upper Rubber Boot" Saskatchewan, wherever the next air show was, and do our 4-plane formation show. Tons of fun! Ended up leading the team the next year. I ultimately did three instructional tours in Portage, one teaching new instructors, and the last as Chief Flight Instructor of #3 Canadian Forces Flying Training School. I certainly learned the value of top notch instruction, and to this day have a lot of time for pilots with a solid instructional background.

In the late 80's, I did a tour on T-33 jets out of Comox. Again, had a wonderful time. Lots of fleet support stuff. We had the ability to stream targets behind the aircraft on 10,000' of cable, so that the navy could shoot at us. Didn't care so much for that part of the job! I'll tell ya, the words "Cease Fire! ... Bores Clear!" take on new meaning in your life in that role. We also had threat emitters in the nose of the aircraft that could simulate the signals of various Soviet missiles. We'd typically depart Comox, head a hundred miles or so out to sea, then turn around and head for Seattle or Portland or wherever, and wait to get intercepted. I especially enjoyed seeing the F-4 Phantoms coming out, because with their smoke trail in full-AB, you could see them coming the whole hundred miles! Once intercepted, we'd mix it up for a bit, then be escorted back to whatever base they came out of for debrief. That's another thing about military life, often times when you head in to work in the morning, you have no idea where you're going to end up that night. Ended up being Deputy Commanding Officer of the squadron, so got quite involved in personnel management, writing evaluation reports, that type of stuff. I was promoted to Major at that point, and just prior to departing the base, was tasked to lead the "Bad Guys" on a Base Defense Force exercise. Essentially, I recruited a team of "infiltrators" from various other military agencies, and coordinated incursions onto CFB Comox to test their defensive capabilities. Learned a lot on that little escapade, like how tough it is to get a young "Commando" to play dead when he still has bullets left in his gun.

Overall, the military was a great experience, and is a great career for the right person. Like I said, it has its negatives, but the positives far outweigh them. I've been flying in the commercial environment for the last several years, and like every professional pilot here, have had my share of ups and downs. It's always paid my bills, and I've considered myself fortunate to have earned a living doing something I truly enjoy. I have a cushy little retirement job now, flying a PC-12 and a Citation jet out of Kelowna, and will do it until I can't. Until then, I'll keep having fun. When the career end does come, it'll have been a great run!

Fly safe, all.

Alpha Crit

[Jercules]

One of the big detractors that guys seem to mention is the requirement to complete ground tours. FWIW, in the transport community if you don't mind alternating between operational tours and training tours (Harvard II instr/King Air instr) you can keep flying as long as you like.

[co-joe]

Wow Alpha Crit! That was a fun read. I wish I could sum up my aviation career in words like that.

And here I thought all you needed to do was watch "Jetstream" on TV and you'd have what the CF is all about.

Seriously though from those of us who are "V2" and can't hope for higher than a navigator position in the CF if anyone else wants to share their story here's to dreaming.

[TheCheez]

Wow Alpha Crit! That was a fun read. I wish I could sum up my aviation career in words like that.

And here I thought all you needed to do was watch "Jetstream" on TV and you'd have what the CF is all about.

Seriously though from those of us who are "V2" and can't hope for higher than a navigator position in the CF if anyone else wants to share their story here's to dreaming.

I believe you're allowed V2 as long as you can correct to V1 now. This was another change that came down around the laser surgery time. If you're serious you should talk to a recruiter. I did some quick searches and couldn't find anything that I would call reliable saying this was the new standard.

[Gannet167]

I think V2 is ok, as long as you can wear glasses to correct to 20/20.

I wouldn't trust the Recruiting Center on everything - especially if they told you "he informed me .... I would have to get laser eye surgery to enter the CF as a pilot." Better to find out the truth before you pay $4K for surgery, only to find out you're not eligible to apply anymore. RC's have in the past given out some very bad advice and inaccurate facts.

I don't think the term "bus driver" is meant to be derogatory. Civy guys are lucky enough to only have to worry about flying a plane and hence are 'drivers'. CF members have a massive scope of administrative and professional duties to attend to, and fly much less.