Radio Skills

[full_flaps]

Hi All,

Just wondering at what point in training does radio skills with ATC start to improve. My problem is I can't digest everything they throw at me. I am a CPL student with about 130 hours. Does it eventually get easier?

[Tim]

have you spoken to your instructor about it?

[ogc]

How much time do you spend in control zones?

I had this problem, as most of my training was done uncontrolled and thus I never really dealt with it very often.

A couple of things I did to work on it.

1. planned my cross countries to more controlled airports.
2. listened to liveatc.net to get an idea of what common things they ask etc.
3. If they say something too quickly, ask them to repeat it.

This is within reason, if you are unable to catch basic requests I would review it more on the ground first. Liveatc.net is a good thing to use for this.

And as Tim said.... talk to your instructor about it.

[Dleaguesniper]

How often do you fly?
Is it a busy airport?
English your first language?
Is it procedures you don't understand?

After a few years off of flying I got back into it at about 140TT. I was nervous every transmission with lots of umms and ahhhs. It's all about practice. If your flying often and still struggling I'd talk to an instructor or even other students about it. Practice...

[burhead1]

If you can get into a control tower, as they would let you in Waterloo not sure if they still do? It is nice to see the other side of things and to put a face to the voice. Some when they start out are nervouse talking to them. As stated it is ok to ask them to repeat and also let then know your a student.

[Gannet167]

Talking on the radio is very much like learning a new language. It has its own vocabulary, syntax, grammar and lingo. In time, you learn these and just like learning to speak a new language, it becomes natural to "converse" in the other language. The big thing is to just relax. Most of what you say is just common sense stuff. If you weren't talking on the radio but just talking to a buddy, you'd say quite similar things anyway. It's easy to get caught up in trying to sound cool like the other guys you hear and over think what to say. Once you click the mic, stage fright can set in. Relaxing, and just saying what you mean is generally going to get the message across and it'll be 80% correct anyway - which is better than loading up the ummms and ahhhhhs and basically getting 10% of it right.

The big thing is anticipating what will come next and being ready for what you know ATC will say. If you call for clearance, be ready to copy it and know what you expect to hear them say. When you call for taxi, have the airport diagram open and anticipate the taxi route they'll give you, write it down if you have to. A good short hand technique is your friend here. There is a definite flow and sequence to what ATC says. It's a very predictable pattern and it follows a very standardized format.

Otherwise, try to sequence in your mind step by step instructions. Blah blah blah blah blah blah should get organized in your mind as:
1. turn left to XXX degrees
2. descend to XXX feet
3. Intercept the the XXX for the XXX approach
4. altimeter setting is XXX
5. XXX kts until the beacon
6. Contact tower xxx.xx

Draw a mental picture of your flight path and imagine yourself doing those things. Reading it back will be easier. Then just read it back like it was a shopping list. ATC shouldn't overload you with too much crap but if they're busy they can give you too much info to process. If you have to, comply with what you can and ask them to confirm the rest.

[Strega]

Just dont say "any conflicting please advise" and everything will be fine

[Hedley]

After a while, you realize ATC says the same thing over and over again. You just need to get used to hearing it, so that you learn to expect what they're going to say. A scanner can help in that regard.

You need to learn to prioritize. Often ATC will seemingly drone on endlessly about all sorts of stuff. You need to pick out what's important to you - eg an altitude assignment. That's really important to ATC. You can screw up an awful lot of stuff, but as long as you maintain your assigned altitude, nothing really bad will happen, until ATC has a chance to get back to you.

As far as you talking to ATC ... you need to learn about the 4 W's:

Who you are talking to
Who you are
Where you are
What you want to do

Nearly any radio call will follow the above format. I should mention that rarely is ATC ready to accept the above cold, so you probably want to start with the first 2 W's:

Boomtown Tower
Cessna Golf Romeo India November

When tower acknowledges your call, time for the 4 W's

Boomtown Tower
Romeo India November
10 miles south, 2 thousand
Inbound with Kilo

The 3rd W above tells the tower that you are 10 miles south of the airport at two thousand feet.

The 4th W tells the tower that you want to land, and oh by the way you have ATIS information Kilo

It's really not that hard.

Let's say you weren't landing, and just wanted to transition through the control zone. Your 4th W might sound like this instead:

Boomtown Tower
Romeo India November
10 miles south, 2 thousand
Transition northbound to Splendidville

which tells Tower that you're on your way north to the Splendidville airport, and need clearance through the zone. Tower might reply:

Romeo India November, that's approved, maintain two thousand and report overhead the airport

Since you're VFR you could just reply with your tail letters:

Romeo India November

but I would probably reply

Romeo India November, 2 thousand, report overhead

which is more of an IFR-ish response, and I would probably use unless the frequency was insanely busy.

[Dagwood]

One time I departed Oshawa and my clearance sounded something like this:
"GABC Altimeter 29.92 aircraft just departed is for the circuit wind 300 at 10 cleared takeoff runway 30 maintain 2000 feet report clear of the zone."

Filtering through what's really really important just takes practice:
29.92 wasn't really important as my altimeter was already set.
The traffic advisory wasn't really important, as I could see the aircraft departing before me and there wasn't going to be a conflict.
The wind direction wasn't really important, as I could see the windsock for wind direction and speed and just mentally noted the crosswind component.
Runway 30 wasn't really important, I was holding short of it anyway and just had to confirm that I was at the right one.
Report clear is standard procedures... I'm not going to re-memorize what I already know.

It sounded like a lot, but all that was really, really important was maintain 2000. Everything else I was expecting.

[Shiny Side Up]

After a while, you realize ATC says the same thing over and over again.

This is probably the biggest thing to remember, the scenario when you're talking to ATC is always going to be the same, if they're going to suprise you with something out of the blue they'll usually be pretty clear about it. For VFR flying you're alos always going to initiate contact as per hedley's scenario above, The only real variable is whether they give you permission to do what you've requested or not.

Have you started your IFR yet? If not I would reccomend doing so. I found one of the best tools to improve people's ability to listen on the radio is the Sim. Its all sorts of fun pretending to be ATC as an instructor. Fly the Sim and copy clearances, over and over. Sometimes to see if the stufdent is listening make it like a game of Simon says, randomly throw in a call not to their call letters and see if they do it.

Be on the ball though, remember ATC are people too and they screw up occassionally. They also will sometimes make assuptions so you have two magic phrases to use if you have trouble: "Say again" and "Unfamiliar". Better yet I found if you talk like you're from Texas, they speak slow to you and use small words.

[Gannet167]

New guys can focus on the radio work for its own sake - trying to make a perfect radio call, saying everything you're suppose to, when and how you're suppose to. While that's a great thing to strive after for simplicity, professionalism and reducing radio clutter, try not to focus on making a radio call like it's the whole point of your keying the mic. You use a different part of your brain, like you're trying to recite Shakespeare that you memorized for grade 9 English class. When you speak casually to your friends, you use a whole different part of your brain and the speech flows.

The point is, the radio is a means to an end - being what I want (not an end in itself). ATC is there for the pilot. I wouldn't say "serve" because it's somewhat derogatory. ATC and pilots form a holistic system that moves airplanes safely and effectively. But ATC is there to help you, facilitate your flight, give you what you want/need, tell you when you can't do something etc. They are there for you.

When you call, have your purpose in mind. I want my clearance, so I call and ask for it. When you hit the drive through window at McD's, you don't studder and get lost. You know what you want, you know the sequence. It starts with "how can I help you" and you naturally respond with "Yeah, I'll have a xxxx" ATC is the same thing. Put yourself in ATC's shoes and think - what will he/she give me? What direction is traffic moving today etc. etc., what would I clear myself to? You know if you call tower holding short they're going to say "cleared for takeoff" or "hold short" etc. It's a format, and it's very predictable. Anticipation is the key. They're not going to read you a story, they're going to give you the next step in the process of moving your airplane around. If you're on final, they're not going to say "do you want fries with that " it's quite predictably going to be "You are cleared to land" or something along those lines.

BTW, don't read back your taxi instructions unless you feel the need to clarify them (or, of course, crossing or holding short of a runway in included). If you know you're to go on Alpha, bravo, charlie, delta, foxtrot, and you understand it, just say your callsign to acknowledge.

[Lurch]

Otherwise, try to sequence in your mind step by step instructions. Blah blah blah blah blah blah should get organized in your mind as:
1. left XXX
2. descend XXX
3. Intercept XXX for the XXX approach
4. XXX
5. XXX until the beacon
6. tower xxx.xx

I fixed it for you

Lurch

[cgzro]

The Rockliffe flying club has some podcasts that may be helpful.

http://www.rfc.ca/en/rfcpodcast

They show you departure and arrival procedures VFR into YOW.

the liveatc web site is very helpful too, get onto chicago or hong kong and see if you can keep up

If its really a problem hit up an instructor to just sit with you in a quiet class room and go through a mock arrival/departure etc. a bunch of times and of course for the real thing try to avoid peak times so the controllers are less busy and have time to help you a bit if you have problems.

[Old Dog Flying]

If any of my students had troubles like this I would suggest they buy an inexpensive VHF receiver, listen to the tower babble and draw a mental picture of what is happening. It does work.

[ogc]

If any of my students had troubles like this I would suggest they buy an inexpensive VHF receiver, listen to the tower babble and draw a mental picture of what is happening. It does work.

You dont even need to.

Go to liveatc.net

Its all for free streaming online.

[Adam Oke]

Just dont say "any conflicting please advise" and everything will be fine

I am surprised nobody has suggested to use that fancy clip board that most pilots carry around. Write stuff down, and use short hand. i.e. Runway 23, RWY 23.

[Hedley]

For copying down IFR clearances, I would use the ever-popular CRAFTV format:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRAFT_(aviation)

Weirdly, I met an instrument-rated flight instructor the other day that had
never heard of CRAFTV.

[alctel]

The best thing about doing flight training out of ZBB is that it gets you up to speed on the radio pretty sharpish

[Hedley]

IMHO, using the radio is the least important skill of a pilot.

IMHO a far more important skill for a pilot to have is line servicing - check and replenish oil, refuel, clean windshield & wing leading edges & prop.

I know some pilots dearly love to hear the sound of their own voices, but remember, in this order:

Aviate
Navigate
Communicate

No one ever died because they dropped a microphone. It's not even a good reason to declare a mayday. Really.

I can teach the 4 W's to anyone in a matter of an hour. If I had my way, everyone would solo in a NORDO cub on a grass field. It would teach them to have a good lookout, if nothing else

A month ago, I was heading back to the uncontrolled airport. I managed to make my very abbreviated initial radio call - 4 miles southwest inbound zero six - and that was all, because this weiner on the radio just wouldn't shut up. Gosh, he must have loved the sound of his own voice, because he went on and on about his position and altitude and heading and how he was looking for other aircraft and whether or not he saw them and what position and altitude and direction he thought they were at and going. God, the drivel went on and on and on and on.

I turned final, and transmitted only this:

"You talk a lot"

I know, I am weak. Well, this really sent him off the deep end and he started to talk even more about his love of radio procedures. I turned off the radio and landed and taxiied in because I'd had just about enough of that nonsense.

[Lurch]

Wow Hedley I don't think I've ever agreed with you more.

I turned the radio off today because of too many stupid radio calls, I'll be working in so and so area and I'll be there in 5 minutes, two minutes later a repeat of exactly the same thing, just that they are now there.

Oh I almost forgot about the near collision of two airplanes 50nms apart

I'm Scared

Lurch

[FlaplessDork]

Hey listen to me! Im a pilot and Im going this way, at this altitude. Lord of the skies! I have a big watch, a pair of ray-bans, and I like the sound of my own voice. And if there are any conflicts please advise, this is lord of the skies!

[Hedley]

Don't forget the brown leather jacket. Gotta have one of those.

[Lurch]

Hey listen to me! Im a pilot and Im going this way, at this altitude. Lord of the skies! I have a big watch, a pair of ray-bans, and I like the sound of my own voice. And if there are any conflicts please advise, this is lord of the skies!

That's the funniest thing you've ever written or said, congrats I knew you had it in you.

Of course the population comment on Cs page comes a close second

Lurch

[Shiny Side Up]

IMHO, using the radio is the least important skill of a pilot.

Unfortunately it is viewed as one of the most important to the new initiate. Questions about the radio are inevitably the first ones I field when asked about flight training. Since we operate out of an uncontrolled aerodrome people are flaberghasted that there is no tower and there is not necessarily anyone at the other end of the transmission, or at least someone who cares. I can only assume that many want to be pilots have had some fantasy about flying that primarily centers around them spewing out a long string of jargon loaded with call signs and coded numbers, and that somehow is crucial to saving the day/getting the girl. The phoentic alphabet might as well be some occultist chant for the reverence they hold for it. I personally don't understand it.

Put brain in gear before engaging mouth.

[LousyFisherman]

Unfortunately it is viewed as one of the most important to the new initiate. Questions about the radio are inevitably the first ones I field when asked about flight training. Since we operate out of an uncontrolled aerodrome people are flaberghasted that there is no tower and there is not necessarily anyone at the other end of the transmission, or at least someone who cares.

Many (most?) times when I'm flying a lady in to a remote or grass strip to go camping and I talk on the radio the question comes out "Where are they?" or "Who are you talking to?" and I reply "Oh essentially I'm just talking to myself". Which leads to the question "Well why do you do that?"

I have yet to come up with an answer which I feel is adequate.

LF