Good job yyz ATC

[buss]

Earlier this week a jazz ac had a runway incursion in yyz. They admitted they had passed the hold line and rather than continue across decided to stop in the middle of the runway. Thankfully ATC yelled abort several times and westjet was able to perform a high speed reject.
I just wanted to say thank you for a job well done and the lives saved.
As for Jazz wake the hell up. You guys are getting quite the reputation in the industry for non safe behavior.

[aviator2010]

edited for jjj

[buss]

The WJ pilot may or may not have seen the ac on the runway in time to stop. I can't imagine a T/O roll where the pilot isn't heads up. Kinda hard to stay on the runway I'd think.
Anyway, they were well into the T/O roll when Jazz went over the line.
A similar event happened a few weeks ago in yyz. This time it was a jazz plane taking off. A us carrier read back "roger hold short 6L" and then proceeded to cross the hold short line. Again, the controller screamed repeatedly to stop. The us plane stopped over the line and jazz rotated in front of them. That one gave me goosebumps.
What pisses me off is the fact that we can't protect ourselves against the pilot who doesn't understand what hold short means. They are no different than the drunk driver running red lights on the way home from the bar.

[aviator2010]

or posting on avcanada

[The Vault]

You guys are getting quite the reputation in the industry for non safe behavior.

Exactly what reputation are you referring to?

[Tim]

You guys are getting quite the reputation in the industry for non safe behavior.

Exactly what reputation are you referring to?

that jazz pilots are as bad as drunk drivers i guess.....all of them. if one crew makes a big mistake, everyone at the company is a bad pilot right? that's what every pilot i know thinks.

what i find really similar to drunk driving is how they immediately recognized their error and reported it...just as a drunk driver would call the cops on himself.




get a grip buss. they made a mistake. it happens.

[tailgunner]

Shit happens. The system worked. WJ was able to get it stopped. Nobody was hurt. ATC was doing their job.
Now, lets try and prevent these occurances from becoming commonplace. Here are some ideas.

Never start the ' after landing checklist ' until clear of ALL runways.
Captains, or whomever is driving the A/C, should also read back to the PNF ALL runway hold short/ and cleared to cross instructions, this may catch some errors.
Heads up when taxiing, and have your eyes and ears open.
Only talk to ATC. DO NOT call stoc/ops to let them know you are here,until the appropriate time.
Never assume anything!
Just my 2 cents.

Oh ya, Every operator has had these events. It is not just Jazz.
WJ had one in LAX a few years ago..AC has at least one a year as well.
I know a corporate guy who started a t/o run on a wide taxiway in the US southwest !
Nobody " is getting a rep".

[Canoehead]

As for Jazz wake the hell up. You guys are getting quite the reputation in the industry for non safe behavior.

Pretty broad statement. Care to back that up?

[sanjet]

Hey guys let's just chill, mistakes happen but at least the last line of defence, in this case atc picked it up and stopped westjet from taking off. Its a very good reminder to have both heads up during taxi and to make sure both pilots clearly understood the taxi instructions. I always remind people to just do the after landing flow only and to do the check list after we are clear of all threats or holding short of something for an extended time (ie more than 1-2 minutes).
Good job to tower.

[RatherBeFlying]

Part of the problem is that one a/c is on twr while the other is on gnd; so, guess who does not hear WJ XXX cleared takeoff on 06L...

So you stop and confess: at least gnd and twr sit next to each other, but it takes a few more seconds to get the message through to the departing a/c.

Pearson's a busy place with a complex layout. If traffic patterns require taxiing across active runways, some guys will screw up. Nobody's perfect -- that includes me.

[sky's the limit]

Shit happens. The system worked. WJ was able to get it stopped. Nobody was hurt. ATC was doing their job.
Now, lets try and prevent these occurances from becoming commonplace. Here are some ideas.

Exactly.

This isn't going to turn into yet another Jazz, WJ, or (I'm sure someone will try) AC bashing thread.

If you want to discuss the incident, fine, but leave the barbs at the door or it'll be locked.

stl

[cossack]

Part of the problem is that one a/c is on twr while the other is on gnd; so, guess who does not hear WJ XXX cleared takeoff on 06L...

So you stop and confess: at least gnd and twr sit next to each other, but it takes a few more seconds to get the message through to the departing a/c.

Pearson's a busy place with a complex layout. If traffic patterns require taxiing across active runways, some guys will screw up. Nobody's perfect -- that includes me.

If you've just landed and you're holding short of the inner you should NOT be on Ground for this exact reason.
You will be told when to change frequencies and usually given an indication of what to do on the other side: right on Charlie; hold short of Delta etc.

There are procedures and personnel in place to mitigate the chances of a runway incursion on these runways: red stop bars lit day and night on the exits, the requirement for a complete readback including callsign, hold short and the runway designator; and an extra pair of eyes and ears in the tower monitoring the working controller.

Please do not change frequencies on your own except where the in a sign on the ground. The only places on the Ground at YYZ you can change frequencies without a verbal instruction are when you pass the signs on the way to 05 on H past H4, 23 on H east of A and 06L on D west of M. Guess where people don't change...at the signs , so we usually give the verbal before that. Only after these points are you clear of all conflictions.

On the way to 24R passing D3 is not a good place to change, even if you think the sequence is apparent. There is no sign down there because of all the last minute sequencing that can go on with traffic sometimes leaving the ramp at DT or rarely now DV.

Be safe!

[Dim]

Thanks Cossak, good post. YYZ can be a tricky taxi sometimes for guys like myself that don't fly in there regularly.

[North Shore]

Shit happens. The system worked. WJ was able to get it stopped. Nobody was hurt. ATC was doing their job.
Now, lets try and prevent these occurances from becoming commonplace. Here are some ideas.

Never start the ' after landing checklist ' until clear of ALL runways.
Captains, or whomever is driving the A/C, should also read back to the PNF ALL runway hold short/ and cleared to cross instructions, this may catch some errors.
Heads up when taxiing, and have your eyes and ears open.
Only talk to ATC. DO NOT call stoc/ops to let them know you are here,until the appropriate time.
Never assume anything!
Just my 2 cents.

Oh ya, Every operator has had these events. It is not just Jazz.
WJ had one in LAX a few years ago..AC has at least one a year as well.
I know a corporate guy who started a t/o run on a wide taxiway in the US southwest !
Nobody " is getting a rep".

Good points, 'gunner. I've got to complain, though, that the system didn't work. As I see it the system gets you to read back clearances so that both parties know what has been agreed to. If one side forgets, then the system has failed. in this case, it had a lucky escape. I wasn't there, and don't know the fine details, but what if WJ had been 5 seconds earlier in pushing up the throttles? How much further down the rwy would they have been? How much faster? Could/would they have stopped in time?

[twinpratts]

Earlier this week a jazz ac had a runway incursion in yyz. They admitted they had passed the hold line and rather than continue across decided to stop in the middle of the runway. Thankfully ATC yelled abort several times and westjet was able to perform a high speed reject.
I just wanted to say thank you for a job well done and the lives saved.
As for Jazz wake the hell up. You guys are getting quite the reputation in the industry for non safe behavior.

A rather unprofessional post, by a decidedly "inexperienced" poster.

NEXT.

[countryhick]

The (Air Canada) Jazz Air Limited Partnership Bombardier CL-600-2B19 (RJ100) Regional Jet aircraft (operating as flight JZA8955) was concluding a scheduled IFR flight from Fredericton International Airport (CYFC) to Toronto (LBPIA) (CYYZ). The Westjet Airlines Ltd. Boeing 737-700 series aircraft (operating as flight WJA492) was conducting a scheduled IFR flight from Toronto (LBPIA) (CYYZ) to Montréal (PETIA) (CYUL). After exiting runway 15R, the JZA8955 flight crew were issued taxi instructions which included holding short of runway 15L. They read back the instructions but proceeded onto runway 15L at taxiway TANGO. At that time, WJA492 was commencing their take-off from runway 15L and aborted their take-off. At 1724Z, the WJA492 flight crew requested ARFF services to attend at the aircraft due to hot brakes. WJA492 taxied clear of runway 15L. Ops. impact - unknown.

The incident in question. In this case, yes they would be on separate frequencies, Jazz on south ground, WJ on north tower.

When the 33's are active, upon landing 33L, 99% of the time the routing is either H or N, E, C and then to the terminal. Very rarely do you cross 33R. Why the difference when the 15's are active? T cross 33R, AL is a common routing into the terminal. Could be very easy to "hear" the expected clearance instead of the actual.

Serious incident that does need to be investigated further, but certainly not exclusive to Jazz.

[cossack]

Indeed in this scenario Jazz would have been in contact with Ground approaching 15L. The OP didn't mention the runway configuration in this incident (and I've not been at work for a while) but a couple of posts later 06L was mentioned and what I posted earlier is still valid for that configuration. Many of the runway incursions at YYZ occur on 06L/24R after landing on the outer.

As to the 15s or 33s operations which are much less common, extra caution has to be exercised since crews are very used to crossing these runways in normal east/west ops.

On the 33 operation traffic destined for C33 and north will cross 33R at either H, N or sometimes R. Everything else will head down E. Sometimes, dependent on traffic volume and timing, some T1 arrivals heading for gates between C34 and 171 may get the shortcut via T. Everything else will do the end around behind the departures.

On the 15s there is no reason for a departure end around due to airport layout and so all arrivals will either physically cross 15L at T, V or D; or cross the clearway of 15L on C or 06L. In either case there cannot be a departure rolling or an arrival rolling out, even if you're doing the crossing of the clearway/overrun. It wouldn't be a clearway/overrun otherwise would it?

AL is for the most part an outbound point for the ramp now. AK has become an inbound point since the 2 apron split is between 142-143. On the 33s, however, they are reversed to the old way for better traffic flow.

I believe that the crew of a 737 rolling on 15L would not see a CRJ crossing at T due to the hump in 15L whose crest is at S. The point at which they would see them may be as far south as B4 or R maybe.

[Canoehead]

My .02.

I know that taxi clearances ALWAYS refer to crossing runways or holding short of runways. However I think that by issuing 'crossing' clearances, they have actually reduced the level of safety. If the only time a runway name was mentioned was in association with a hold short clearance, then it would be like a double confirmation of a hold short instruction. Eliminate the 'cross runway XX' verbiage, and only mention runways in a taxi clearance when it involves a hold short instruction.

FWIW I think the YYZ NavCan guys and girls do a good job when you consider that their hands are tied in many instances due to the politics and red-tape known as the GTAA.

[countryhick]

Cossack, thanks for the info. Nice to get it first hand from the folks that are issuing the clearances. You hit the nail on the head regarding 15/33 ops.

[jjj]

I don't have any current CYYZ ground charts on hand,

I was wondering if the Jazz guys crossed an illuminated set of red bars? I have noticed in YYZ that they do not always use them.

Also, was it day or night and what was the visibility?

AVIATOR 2010, please give cossack's post a thorough read and then edit your post.

[cossack]

In that operation there would not normally be an illuminated stop bar on T at 15L. The only places they are commonly used is on either side of 06L/24R in all weather conditions, day or night.

The panel that controls them is "hidden" behind the ASDE display and so is not readily accessible for functional switchability. There is no requirement to have them on outside of Cat2/3 operations.

[RVgrin]

I think that by issuing 'crossing' clearances, they have actually reduced the level of safety. If the only time a runway name was mentioned was in association with a hold short clearance, then it would be like a double confirmation of a hold short instruction. Eliminate the 'cross runway XX' verbiage, and only mention runways in a taxi clearance when it involves a hold short instruction.

The big problem with this suggestion occurs when a pilot takes a wrong turn and arrives at a runway. Without the need for explicit crossing instructions he will assume he should cross... with possible disastrous results.

I like the idea that nobody is allowed on my runway without an explicit clearance, but do we need a double confirmation? I am sure one day regulators will require one. Perhaps two read backs ( from two different voices, in multi-crew planes):

TWO-CREW:
ATC: Air Canada 245, taxi BRAVO, CHARLIE, HOLD SHORT 26 RIGHT
PNF: BRAVO, CHARLIE, HOLD SHORT 26 RIGHT, Air Canada 245
ATC: Air Canada 245 CONFIRM HOLD SHORT 26 RIGHT
PF: Air Canada 245 will HOLD SHORT 26 RIGHT

SINGLE PILOT:
ATC: GABC, taxi BRAVO, CHARLIE, HOLD SHORT 26 RIGHT
C-GABC: GABC will HOLD SHORT
ATC: ABC CONFIRM HOLD SHORT 26 RIGHT
C-GABC: ABC will HOLD SHORT 26 RIGHT <sigh>

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

Now people, my idea here will be taken from the porter thread (You know, the one about them intentionally breaking the rules to gain pax loyalties) , brought to our attention by a Jazz pilot.

Do you think this incident at YYZ could have anything to do with being angry over competition and as a result they just decided for the hell of it to make Westjet go around thus seeming like the superior airline? Seems almost as logical...

Now rip my heart out

On a serious note ..... kudos to YYZ atc !

[PatLaP]

I think that by issuing 'crossing' clearances, they have actually reduced the level of safety. If the only time a runway name was mentioned was in association with a hold short clearance, then it would be like a double confirmation of a hold short instruction. Eliminate the 'cross runway XX' verbiage, and only mention runways in a taxi clearance when it involves a hold short instruction.

The big problem with this suggestion occurs when a pilot takes a wrong turn and arrives at a runway. Without the need for explicit crossing instructions he will assume he should cross... with possible disastrous results.

A pilot who assume that he can cross a runway without authorization should reread the PSTAR study and reference guide.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... .htm#4-2-5
Upon receipt of a normal taxi authorization, a pilot is expected to proceed to the taxi-holding position for the runway assigned for takeoff. If a pilot is required to cross any runway while taxiing towards the departure runway, the ground or airport controller will issue a specific instruction to cross or hold short. If a specific authorization to cross was not received, pilots should hold short and request authorization to cross the runway.

Every pilots should know this or have already heard about it since it's a question in the PSTAR study and reference guide.

[KAG]

A poorly timed call from the back, a momentary distraction, fatigue or a brain fart - it happens. Moral of the story stay vigilant, and try to adhear to SOP's even while doing something as simple as taxiing.
A good (non fatal) reminder for us all.

Fly safe.