Training flights with two students onboard: is it worth it?

[mike53]

The idea that there is greater risk because of the third man doesn't hold water.Thats like saying the captain and first officer would be safer if there were no passengers on their airline. The third or 73rd passenger has no bearing on the outcome of the flight other than to add more weight and as long as a weight and balance shows your still in the envelope nothing un-wordly will happen that would not have happened had the extra seat not been filled.
The fact that there have been accidents with an extra passenger is just bad luck for all aboard but I have yet to see or here of an accident report that named as the cause of the accident the third person sitting in the back seat.
If your shooting approaches under the hood the student in the back will learn more watching and figuring things out from the back seat then he ever will just reading about it.
Thats my take.

[Tim]

i'll be blunt as well.

There have been many training accidents where a 3rd pilot was sitting in the back and going for the ride.

you came up 3 crashes, one was 25 years old and another didn't involve fatalities (side note - im not saying a non-fatal crash isn't serious, im just pointing out that you cited fatalities in your reasoning). if anything you made the case that less planes crash with more than one student on board. (btw, adding that you're certain there are more examples doesn't count as giving more examples.) if you want to use stats to make your case you need to come up with the number of training flights flown over a given time period, then figure out the number of all types of training accidents, then compare that number to the number of accidents that had an instructor and more than one student on board. you also have to discount planes that only have 2 seats.

you're arguing something is dangerous based on nothing more than a gut feeling and isolated examples of circumstantial evidence.

i brought students in the back as often as possible when i instructed, just as i rode in the back seat frequently when i was a student. so did most instructors i worked with, and students i trained with, given the opportunity (i.e. not flying in a 2-seater). i think it`s a valuable way to gain experience for the 2nd student.

[GoinNowhereFast]

I think it really depends on what training is being conducted. Heading out to do stalls, slow flight, Vmc demo, engine out, etc. is probably not worth it. It's a skill, not a procedure that is being developed. The person in the back just sits there, goes for the ride. Not really learning much. It's probably not worth the avgas to haul their ass around.

If it is IFR training, it is probably worth it. The extra student can follow along on an approach plate and go through the procedures in their head.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Statistically the safest flight in a small aircraft is a dual training flight (this comes from US statistics, but I see no reason why it should be any different in Canada). I think there is a lot of value in observing flight training in flight from the back seat, and it is the standard at most colleges. The reason you do not see more of it at FTU's is becomes most training is conducted in two place aircraft and because the guy getting training is paying for "his" airplane I think there has been been a feeling a guy in the back seat is freeloading.

[Cougar]

It is absolutely worth it, unless all the students now flying suddenly are wealthy, and the cost of instruction doesn't factor any more.

It allows the "observer" student to see the maneuvers without the stress of being the one IN the seat, trying to soak it all up at once, at $$Umpteen dollars/hour. The only potential problem I see is if you had students far apart in their progress; it wouldn't be as useful then.

A hundred years ago when I was a broke student (as opposed to just a broke pilot), a guy who was at the same point as I was, mentioned "maybe sharing flights". We all (CFI too, of course) agreed to try it out -- any discomfort, or anything negative, and we'd go back to doing it all on our own.

We ended up doing our instruments, commercials and CFIs together. The only rule was to shut up when in the back, unless it was a callout for traffic, missing gear, or some other urgent safety matter. Basic respect worked fine, and it was a huge help for each of us. The CFI liked it, too.

As for the "safety" factor, jeez, if the back seat is that hairy, then maybe the folks up front shouldn't be there, either. Tony and I had some really fine years learning together.

So it was a real shock when he asked to ride along on an empty twin charter one night, with the local FAA-designated examiner, who was only too happy to share a bit of twin time with him. They mistuned a VOR and flew into a mountain, at night, on a DME arc.

It's all learning -- and if one can do it in a positive environment, than it's valuable. Period.

Just my opinion.

[mike53]

The idea that there is greater risk because of the third man doesn't hold water.

mike53, you are twisting what I said.
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My wife says the same thing to me all the time

[lownslow]

I think it really depends on what training is being conducted. Heading out to do stalls, slow flight, Vmc demo, engine out, etc. is probably not worth it.

Just a note to any instructor who is doing multi ratings: In the multi engine instructor guide it specifically says that passengers are not to be carried if a Vmc demo is done. Of course, there's no longer a requirement to do a Vmc demo so it's probably a moot point to many anyways.

I'd also like to make it abundantly clear that I'm not correcting GoingNowhereFast to be a tool, I just wanted to put the above information out there.

LnS.

[Highflyinpilot]

i did it during my training without any issues, As said above, if it is that hairy sitting in the back the pilpts up front shouldnt be there either.

I may add though that i never went up in the back when stalls, slow flight, forced approach etc. those kinds of exercises. Only on cross country flights so maybe my view on it doesnt count.

[warbirdpilot7]

Two students on board is/should not be problem when doing IFR refreshing or initial training. I think for 2 students working on an IFR rating should, whenever they can, sit in the back of a seminole/cutlass or whatever the platform is. They can then switch, and when the other is flying, the backseater can look at the panel and watch the VOR's/ADF's GPS etc......... I have no doubt this will cut down on their time spent in the aircraft(which equates to less money.)

If a student is switching from a 152 to a 172, then by all means have 2 people sit in the back and show what an airplane loaded close to gross feels/flys like.

Stalls, Steep turns, Forced approaches, the 180* engine failure pro., can be left to instructor/student practice.

[Bushav8er]

A student working on their PPL should be left as one-on-one, besides, the 'new' student doesn't need another perceived source of 'pressure'. PPL and up, ie student licenced; for CPL or ratings, fine, it it fits in with the type of air work being taught.

[Tim]

i don't get why some exercises are ok with a backseater and others aren't. barring the a/c limitations during certain exercises i just don't see how sitting in the back can be anything but valuable (assuming the backseater is there to quietly learn and observe). everything your seeing is a demo. as an instructor you must demo everything anyways, so why not let them see it a few extra times. it certaintly can't make them WORSE at anything.

the whole point of backseating is to learn from the mistakes of the person in the front - at least thats how i always looked at it. i figured if my buddy screwed something up, it's probably something i would screw up too. so i would try to learn from what they did, keep it in the memory banks and apply it when it was my turn.

pretty much any exercise can be broken down procedurally IMO, whether it's a stick and rudder exercise like a steep turn or slow flight or a step by step exercise like a forced appch, it all boils down to doing the right things in the right order with tweaks for current conditions. for example, trying to do a steep turn by starting with adding power isn't going to give the desired result. as a student sitting in the back you can see immediately what happens if you do this step out of order.

[KK7]

When I was instructing, I had several approach me asking if they could ride along, and I always refused on the basis that it would be a distraction to my student flying in the left seat, who is the one paying for the lesson. On occasion, I had my student request that someone ride along, be it another student who is their friend, or their wives. I would allow it depending on the lesson (ie cross countries, instrument flying), but with the warning that it may cause a distraction and we may have to redo the lesson later if we cannot achieve the goal. In this case since the PAYING student is making the request, so long as it is safe and they understand that it may detract from the lesson, I have no business blocking it.

There are a couple of occasions where having someone in the back seat is advantageous to the student, but only in the final portion of ab initio training IMHO. One reason is to have some weight in the back to see how the aircraft may or may not behave differently. The second reason is once they are licenced they can carry passengers, and must learn the added responsibility of briefing them, informing them and managing the distraction in the back.

The first time I did this was quite by accident, but a student asked to bring his wife along for some diversion practice. It hit me that we can turn this into a more realistic lesson if we told her we were going on a trip somewhere, then he's have to keep her in the loop as we went along of why we were not going to our destination anymore. It added to his workload, but in real life, if he did this trip licenced with some friends and had to divert, he'd have the same added workload. He could choose to tell her what was going on in detail, or tell her briefly then tell her to let him concentrate, whatever he felt was the best thing to do at the time, and he got to see how it affected his diversions. It worked out great!

Anyways, I think the value of sitting in the back seat is very limited in all other cases, and most of the time it might benefit the backseater some, but it takes away from the guy in the front seat. As for the original post though, I don't understand how this exposes the third guy to more risk. Statistically, flight instruction is some of the safest flying there is in Canada, that is when there is both a flight instructor and a student on board. Without knowing the reasons for the few accidents that were initially listed, how can you claim that this is riskier than say having one guy and his PPL bringing along 2 friends? The instructor is a fully licenced individual, trained to carry passengers in the seats on board the aircraft.

[Hedley]

I have had good results with putting people in the back seat for IFR training flights.

Because they aren't occupied with flying the airplane, they can often learn a lot simply by watching and listening.

As long as they don't say anything, I don't see the harm in them being there.

PS This is for straight and level stuff only. Slow flight, stalls, spins, I want the back seat empty.

[lownslow]

...2 SOB's versus 3 SOB's.

Great, from now on you've got me thinking of the guy in the seat beside me as an SOB...

LnS.

[Walker]

Pre PPL no; not much to be gained from it

IFR, or 2 people doing their class 4; that's another story.

[CPLMike89]

Absolutly worth it, When I did my multi/multi-ifr I sat in the back for a few flights observing. Needless to say it saved me quite a bit of money and time by fine tuning my understanding of the procedures. I would reccomend this type of learning to anyone doing IFR training.

Mike W

[MultiSister]

Ive flown with a flight partner, and without a flight partner. I have also rode alone on training flights and I find them fairly helpful. I have also tagged along with my boyfriend during his multi flights before I had my multi and I found it very helpful. The training aspect to it is fairly helpful and saved me alot of money just watching and sitting in.

Just because a plane when down with training people in it.. doesn't mean it crashed just because the 3rd person was at fault. Every person knows the consequences if something were to happen if they went flying.

Sometimes I do agree that tagging along on some training flights just because you have too, doesn't help. Especially when you already know how and have done it.

[KAG]

It's worth it from day one, granted only with proper PGI and an understanding of what exercises are about to be done. The more experience you have, the more you can gleam from the back seat, the more you will take away.

it's especially useful in procedure heavy exercises and in the Multi/IFR training.