A hypothetical situation

[ditar]

Imagine you were a captain at a small 704 operation. One of the newer copilots got his PPC a couple months ago and has been on the flight line since then. You only get paired up with him every so often, and when you do, you’ve usually done flights during the day when the weather has been pretty good. You’ve determined the copilot’s flying skills are satisfactory under such conditions.

Lately you’ve done a bunch of flights at night or in lousy weather. On the legs where you’ve let the copilot fly, you determined his instrument flying skills are poor. There have been multiple occasions where you have had to prompt the copilot repeatedly on the aircraft attitude or airspeed due to unacceptable deviations. In a couple of cases you’ve even had to take control momentarily to right the airplane. You have done your best to be assertive and provide constructive feedback to help the copilot, but things are not improving to a satisfactory degree, and you’re becoming frustrated.

You feel that you can manage the situation to a safe level, but are also very concerned with the comfort of the passengers when the airplane is pitching and rolling as though it were on the high seas. Furthermore, should something happen to you, you’re not very confident that the copilot could get the airplane safely on the ground if the weather were anything but VFR.

The chief pilot is aware that this particular pilot isn’t any top gun, but his training and ride went reasonably well and the chief pilot might not be aware of how things have been going on line flights, because the problems only surface under certain conditions. The copilot is well meaning and tries hard, but in your opinion their problems are not due to a new airplane, but due to deficiencies in basic flying skills. You don’t want to sink your coworker by recommending he be pulled off the flight line, but on the other hand the safety and comfort of the flight is your responsibility. To complicate matters everyone is friends and you'd feel pretty awkward if it was your recommendation that caused the copilot to get demoted or dismissed.

What would you do?

[Cat Driver]

What would you do?

That is a tough one to answer.

However I would have a one on one talk to him/her and express my belief that he/she was poorly trained and I am willing to let him/her fly the airplane on all the legs concentrating on the weak points, in this case sloppy instrument flying.

Give him/her one month and if he/she is just not able to do the job then I would not let him/her fly in IMC period.

By the way the chief pilot would be aware of exactly what I was doing so there can not be any blow back from that position.

[goingmach_1]

As a Captain you are responsible for the safe conduct of the entire flight. If your co-pilot has weak skills then your repsonsibility is advise the Chief Pilot of your concerns. There is no rule saying that all legs must be shared. It is a privelage not a right to have the S.I.C. fly the aircraft. Of course skills improve with experience, that is how you became a Captain. Having others gain experience is how they will improve. However, if you feel that this is not helping the individual, then you must advise your Chief Pilot.

You are doing everybody a favor with this action. Yourself, and the individual. This person will be relegated to a training Captain to help him improve, or released as obvioisly he is in over his head.

If it is bothering you so much to post here, than believe that this circumstance is not right.

In a nut shell, have the right people doing the right job. You are showing good leadership skills by addressing this situation straight on. It is not always peachs and cream. If something goes wrong somewhere along the line, you want to have a clear conscience. That is why you are a Captain.

I have been there. As a past Chief Pilot, ACP, training Captain. I can tell you that not everybody is an all star. In my opinion, if we were all average, that works. But this sounds to me he is below average. That will not work.

Tough decisions come with the territory.

[Doc]

The comment about the person's training and ride "going reasonable well.." concerns me. Nothing is further from the "real world" than the "ride". Take it from someone, who if he flew the line the same way he flies "rides", he'd have been worm food years ago.
The comment about "flying being a privilege....." also has me worried.
There are pilots who should look at different lines of work, for sure, but it's really pretty rare that a pilot can't be "brought along" with positive reinforcement and patience.
Don't "let" him fly, MAKE him fly. All the legs. In all the weather. Day and night. Have him critique his performance on these flights. Have him make all the decisions. Become his mentor. By all means, clear this with your CP. Very rarely will a pilot not recognize it when he screws something up. He'll learn from his mistakes, supervised by you.
Try it for a month......if this fails to work, have a serious sit down with the Pilot, and your CP

[Cat Driver]

It is a privelage not a right to have the S.I.C. fly the aircraft.

I see it quite differently.

Both pilots " should " be competent enough to handle any emergency without help should the other pilot become incapacitated.

Therefore generally the flying should be split 50 50 unless the FO needs extra flying to become competent.

I was never satisfied until the FO could fly the airplane to a high degree of skill..so I let them do most of the flying until they realized I was taking advantage of them.

[Airtids]

I agree with Cat on the 50/50 flying split: ALL crew should be proficient. Besides, that's how you create Captains...

You've talked to your F/O, you've talked to your CP. I would suggest to the CP that they might consider scheduling themselves with the F/O on a couple of reasonably dirty nights for a second opinion. That's their job, after all. This is not a huge issue for the F/O: some of the best pilots go through periods where they lose their scan (often a result of insufficient stick time), but this is fairly easily remedied, especially if you have access to a sim.

[KK7]

The way I see it, as an FO, one of your jobs is to learn. As a Captain, you still have the job to learn, but you have an added responsibility to teach as well. As a Captain myself in a few different operations including 705, I see it as part of my duty to help make the FO a good Captain someday. So one thing you can do in your difficult situation, is teach. It's more than just pointing out the errors and where improvement is needed, but what can this individual work on to help improve skills in weak areas.

Of course this isn't a flying school, and all crew members, FOs and Captains alike, are expected to carry at least a minimum skill level. If they do not have this minimum requirement, they should not be doing their job until they have attained this minimum level. In your operation, your FO has a job, that is to help ensure the safety of the flight in an efficient and comfortable manner. One of the many reasons we have two pilots, is so that should one become incapacitated, the other can at least somewhat get everyone home in one piece, even if it is in a rough manner. If you think your FO cannot do this, you must report it to the chief pilot. Otherwise, you're increasing the level of risk on each flight this individual is a part of, and removes the whole mitigating reason he is there for to begin with.

As an aside, for the one who says that the FO's opportunity to fly the airplane is a privilege and not a right, give your head a shake. You could say the same for the Captain. In fact it's often been shown that in an emergency in a multi-crew aircraft, it is often better to have the FO focus on flying the airplane, and the Captain thinking and directing the situation. Having the Captain do all the flying adds to workload and diminishes the amount of focus that could be put into figuring out how to get out of a sticky situation. The FO should have the ability to fly the airplane, or they shouldn't be in that seat. An FO who has not been allowed to fly the aircraft his/her fair share reduces their skills and increases the Captain's workload.

[ILSfan07]

...flights during the day when the weather has been pretty good. You’ve determined the copilot’s flying skills are satisfactory under such conditions...

Lately you’ve done a bunch of flights at night or in lousy weather... you determined his instrument flying skills are poor. There have been multiple occasions where you have had to prompt the copilot repeatedly on the aircraft attitude or airspeed due to unacceptable deviations. In a couple of cases you’ve even had to take control momentarily to right the airplane...

...because the problems only surface under certain conditions... in your opinion their problems are not due to a new airplane, but due to deficiencies in basic flying skills...
What would you do?

What's his scan pattern like? My first thought was that he may be chasing his instruments. If he's good VMC but suddenly loses that crutch in IMC, I'd go back to the fundamentals... throw him in the sim if possible. If not, watch his eyes closely and try to see what's going through his brain. Practice does NOT make perfect, PERFECT practice makes perfect.

...ALL crew should be proficient. Besides, that's how you create Captains...

This is not a huge issue for the F/O: some of the best pilots go through periods where they lose their scan (often a result of insufficient stick time), but this is fairly easily remedied, especially if you have access to a sim.

+1, it would be a shame to pull this guy off the line for what could be a quick fix. One thing is for sure, you can't maintain status quo. Hope all goes well!

[goingmach_1]

I agree with all of your comments.

However, to elaborate on a point, if the F/O is so bad that the Captain has to take control of the aircraft, then the Captain needs to ensure a safe flight. Hence, its a privelage not a right. Like you said, its not a flying school.

Question. When was last time any Captain reading this thread has had to no shit take back the aircraft control? I will hazard to guess not many. Who would let it get that far. If you know the other pilot has such lack of skill there is a fine line to being a teacher and being a responsible Captain.

Example. Air Canada RJ landing in Fredericton on a very foggy night.

I have spent at least half my career, 15K hours, sitting in the right seat mentoring other pilots. It got to the point that I just stayed in that seat as PIC and flew my leg there. But the other pilot was capable of being where he was.

Whenever we came across a pilot who could not be trained to a left seat privalege, he/she was released.

Lets not forget about passed expierences where pilots had bubbled along, and sooner or later became a major problem. ie: a EMB120 Captain stalled and spun near Raleigh NC. No surviors. Upon investigation, it was found that this particular Captain had a history of failed, difficult rides. However he kept getting another job. Got let go for poor pilot skills, but hired somewhere else. Because of that, there is now rules in the US that a hiring company must review his past employment and training records.

Its easy to take the high road, and say oh be a good guy or girl and help the upcoming pilot who are less skilled. YEAH of course. But, and a big BUT, if its apparent that so and so is not cutting it, and thats what I read here in the begining thread then someone needs to throw a flag on the play.

Flying has a very quick way of turing a mistake into a disaster.

I can tell anyone who wants to listen, that I personally have sat my butt in the right seat as PIC and directed the flight accordingly. The left seater needed to know how to fly though. That had to be a given. Engine out, IMC to the deck, icing to the max, CRFI off the chart. I was PIC. The PF was in the left seat. Declared an emergency and as a CREW it all became quite routine. BUT both of us could fly the plane. I ran the checklist, ran the radios, made the decisions. Without the task of stick handling the beast it was actually quite comfortable.

Now take that example and have so and so onboard and mull that one through. By the way it was a twin engine jet. The PF had 1500TT, first turbine. He could fly IFR without question though.

For those wondering why we did not head off to a better airport. That was the best one. The whole Eastern Seaboard was down.

[ScudRunner]

Give him an application for Jazz, and tell him he can use you as a reference, leave a copy of all the HR questions in his mail slot and pray to allah they take him!

[nimbostratus]

I've run into this situation more than once in the past. No matter how likeable the guy/girl is, I find my decision making is much better if I imagine any decision I make will lead to members of my family one day riding in the back seat with the pilot in question at the controls. This pilot should be flying with line indoc/training Captains only until all are comfortable that he is capable of flying safely with your most senior FO. (Likely that will be your next Captain, and it always seems that this would be the pair thrown together at the last minute on a crappy night by crew scheduling. (Murphy's Law).
Give the pilot specific goals and a timeframe to improve, spell out the consequences. If they don't improve, invite them to find the door. It's a tough stance but lives ARE at stake.

Keep the skies safe!

Nimbo

[KK7]

However, to elaborate on a point, if the F/O is so bad that the Captain has to take control of the aircraft, then the Captain needs to ensure a safe flight. Hence, its a privelage not a right. Like you said, its not a flying school.

Well put... Agreed!

[FlaplessDork]

Give him an application for Jazz, and tell him he can use you as a reference, leave a copy of all the HR questions in his mail slot and pray to allah they take him!

+1

[trey kule]

first of all. CYA.. Advise the CP ..IN WRITING of your concerns. If they are doing their job they will discuss the situation with other Captains confidentially and , as they already should be doing , or having someone doing line checks, schedule some ride alongs. Be honest with the FO. Point our factually the specific instances and advise them that you really need an independent opinion.

The whole privelege thing, I believe got mistrued on this thread. Some 704 operations have had very bad experiences over the years with new FO's finding out they cannot fly quite as well as they believe, and thus have restrictions on their flying legs...I think that is maybe what the poster meant as it is sometimes at the Captain's discretion. It is one of those situations where companies hired underqualified pilots to do a job, and then restrict them doing it because of a safety concern.

The whole problem, and it is a problem, is people still seem to think that the FO position and Captain's position are training roles...An FO has to do the job they were hired to do. As someone mentioned, it is not a flight school. If they cant do the job properly and safely, and remedial training does not help, then it is time to say goodbye, but line flying is not the place to be training a potentially incompetent FO...the consequences are just to serious.

[justwork]

To an extent I agree with Doc and Catdriver. I don't think I would have him/her fly every leg if you work at a place that has you doing 12-14 duty hours with lots of flying, by making him fly fatigued you will be setting him/her up to fail, they're likely not going to improve which would be discouraging. I would definitely get them to fly the majority of the legs, and progress to having them fly the more challenging legs. Getting the person to critique themselves is always good. Before you offer your critique remember that you were a 200 hour wonder at some point in your career too, and maybe if the circumstances were different you could have easily ended up just as rusty. Be patient.

I remember when I was an FO there were certain captains I flew with that for some reason or another my performance was always lower than typical - mostly because these guys were dicks that would critique everything and nothing was good enough. I'm willing to bet that if a captain said something along the lines of "It is a privelage not a right to have the S.I.C. fly the aircraft" to me my perception of them would be that this guy has a major case of captainitis, or is a real prick, which would make me nervous to fly with them, and those nerves would likely cause my performance to actually go down. So be patient.

I don't know the situation, but one thing that I have noticed is that the industry has been a little stagnant the past few years, people are throwing bags for a long time before they get back in the flight deck, which means the "skills" they acquired during there 200 hours are not going to be as polished as someone who has been worked like a dog.

On another note, the SOP's at my current company state that legs shall be shared 50/50, or as the captain sees fit. Which has pretty much been the exact same wording at every other company I have worked for, and I think is pretty much industry standard. I don't really see how that could be interpreted as "flying as SIC is a privilege"

It is a privelage not a right to have the S.I.C. fly the aircraft.

Even though I'm new here, and you seem to have a lot of experience as a former CP, ACP, and training captain, I don't think this is the right choice of words.

[chu me]

Having been a chief pilot , training captain, sim instructor, instructor and line pilot I have run across this alot. As Doc said a "ride" is not a realistic scenario, all it means is that on the day of the ride the pilot has managed to scrape together enough skill to get by. The funny thing is these problems can usually be fixed by a little training, a lot of flying and supervision and a little patience from the right captain. I have found in my limited experience that it is usually that the pilot has not been trained how to properly trim an aircraft. Sounds simple but it is true!! They are spending so much time trying to keep the a/c in a certain attitude that they are overcontrolling and fighting the a/c. This usually leads to frustration and fatigue, and the pilot get "behind" the aircraft and never catches up. Although when it is vfr they can use outside references to make small corrections and get instant feedback and use this to fly the aircraft, when it is ifr they quickly break down. Check this pilot and see if that is the case, if it is the fix is easy, just go back to basics of trimming the a/c set the attitude then trim the pressure out! Try setting up the a/c and see if the pilot can fly on the instruments, then have them set it up and see if there is a difference. Make sure that whatever you do the CP is involved. It sucks to have to be an instructor on the line but a good captain and a good friend wouldn't mind, remember we have all had help at one time or another from a patient captain! Good luck and fly safe.

There I'm done.........have at'er boys.

P.S. like Doc, I hate and suck at rides!!!!!!

[RVgrin]

I agree that the CP needs to know, and the CP needs to inform all the captains to keep an extra close eye on the plane when the subject pilot is flying. Safety is paramount.

The captains should all work with him if he is to remain with the company. Would it be legal to bring a hood on VMC days and make him fly under it?

[Doc]

Would it be legal to bring a hood on VMC days and make him fly under it?

How to lose your customers in, count 'em. ONE easy lesson. It's Okay folks, we're just going to blindfold old Fred here, cause he can't fly.
Congrats on the dumb question of the day award.

[RVgrin]

Would it be legal to bring a hood on VMC days and make him fly under it?

How to lose your customers in, count 'em. ONE easy lesson. It's Okay folks, we're just going to blindfold old Fred here, cause he can't fly.

Ha ... You got me laughing so hard now I am actually crying.

Congrats on the dumb question of the day award.

hehe. someone pass me a smiley....hang on.... there fixed it.

Doc, your post seriously made my day. Thanks.

[ditar]

I don't know the situation, but one thing that I have noticed is that the industry has been a little stagnant the past few years, people are throwing bags for a long time before they get back in the flight deck, which means the "skills" they acquired during there 200 hours are not going to be as polished as someone who has been worked like a dog.

That is certainly true. But to be a little more specific in my hypothetical scenario, let's say this person has nearly 1000 hours, the majority of which were acquired over the last year and a half flying single pistons up north, with no down time prior to being upgraded to F/O.

[justwork]

Well if he's lived through the last 1000 hours flying around up north then I hope he has something to offer, or maybe he's just really lucky. Making the transition from VFR to IFR can be difficult for some people. I have flown with guys that have thousands of hours of float time, great flying skills, but by the time you get the landing gear up they're so far behind the aircraft that they're sitting somewhere around row 18, have no real IFR situational awareness, and crossing the FAF you're wondering if they even know they're on an ILS. Same guys 1000 hours later are some of the best IFR captains in the company.

So how do they get there? Well first they have to recognize that they need to learn something, for some reason this is the most difficult part and the ones that can't recognize this will never succeed. Then the captains they fly with need to teach them...

I know this isn't a flight school but as a captain I think you should do your best to help your struggling FO. Be honest with him, tell him he's not kicking ass, but try and do it in away that you don't come across looking like a self proclaimed . Yeager. Then let him know that you're going to work with him if he wants. This might sound cheesy but set goals for him for the flight, "alright Hank, your remember last night? You were +- 100' the entire time we were cruising, today I want to see +-50 MAX. This is how you're going to do it..." and give him some basic tips. Set limits "the SOP is +-50' but I'm going to call you at 20', so we can really hammer this skill into you, sound good?" or "I noticed on the ILS you were really chasing the needles, here are some of the tricks I've learned to help me fly very easy approaches" then talk him through the actual approach. I bet if you make a sincere effort to help him out you'll be able to see him improve each flight until one day you just don't have to help anymore. You may surprise yourself and find that watching him improve is actually very rewarding.

[Cat Driver]

. Would it be legal to bring a hood on VMC days and make him fly under it?

Of all the training devices the hood has to be the most unorthodox contraption that has ever been foisted on pilots.

If I were asked to wear a hood to demonstrate I could fly the airplane with reference to only the instruments / glass I would be insulted, not to mention refuse to wear it..

[Doc]

I used to wear a "hood", but then I quit burning crosses....