Why won't you support nation wide pilot representation?

[teacher]

So there's another thread again talking about a nation wide pilot union, association or college. There's a lot of opinions on whether this would benefit us as a profession or not. Lots of folks are against the idea and I'm sure there's a lot of folks that would want to know why this wouldn't be a good idea? If you think I should add another answer let me know and I'll add it.

I for one am strongly for a nation wide group to help promote our profession and will support it the minute it becomes a reality.

[rigpiggy]

So how do we come up with a seniority list age, date of cpl, atpl, payscales based upon rev px mile, mtow. how about dues, do you base it on wage, or a flat rate. what about disciplinary actions tribunal, adjudicator etc......, how about those that don't cut the mustard, more training, who pays for it. Look at how the whole CBAA POC issue that worked well, Not. Like communism love the idea, but unworkable in real life.

[phillyfan]

Because I'm a float/ski pilot who makes good money. I don't need a bunch of college and university trained pilots screwing that up for me. The only guys that need "representation" are guys who can't find work, guys who don't know how to work, or guys who are too chicken shit to stand up to the boss. Basically guys we don't want in the industry anyways.

[I WAS Birddog]

So how do we come up with a seniority list age, date of cpl, atpl, payscales based upon rev px mile, mtow. how about dues, do you base it on wage, or a flat rate. what about disciplinary actions tribunal, adjudicator etc......, how about those that don't cut the mustard, more training, who pays for it. Look at how the whole CBAA POC issue that worked well, Not. Like communism love the idea, but unworkable in real life.

That isn't the right formula for it.

American Lawyers have a Bar Association. Here we have the FLSC (I think correct me if I'm wrong but it doesn't matter for this conversation)

Definition: BAR associations are responsible for the regulation of the legal profession in their jurisdiction; others are professional organizations dedicated to serving their members; in many cases, they are both. the "bar" may refer to the entire community of persons engaged in the practice of law.

The way I see it is, if companies in Canada under SMS are allowed to be self-regulating/governing...I ALSO think one-step removed pilots are allowed to be self-regulating/governing with regards to their conduct not becoming of a professional pilot.

Why not!? Raise the 'bar'...(so to speak) in pilot professionalism.

That's all I have to say for now.

[Cat Driver]

Just imagine the uproar if I was put in charge of flight training standards.

[teacher]

The "Bar" association is a good comparison. Lets not confuse union with College or association. Both are possible but both are very different. Personally a College or association that governs licensing, minimum wages and working conditions would be ideal as a start. A national seniority list is a completly different animal all together.

A fee guide and a code of ethics on the working conditions side of things would go a long way to re-establishing a little integrity into this profession. You can work for more than the fee guide BUT NOT LESS and yes, license suspension and/or fine would be a possible consequence to bust'n the rules. Before folks jump on me it's nothing TC doesn't do already we would just add proper "behavior" as a professional pilot to a list of possible infractions.

[BEFAN5]

The only reason we are discussing this, is because there are too many pilots in this country!

Doctors and lawyers would be crying and making 18,000 a year too if anyone could become a doctor and the admission to medical school was open to anyone.

I learned supply vs demand in grade 7. It explains our entire industry.

[iflyforpie]

I would imagine that many smaller operations would simply close their doors without a pool of low-cost labour banging on their door.

With security hassles and surcharges and lack of personal transportation at the other end, how many people would just drive rather than take a puddle jumper somewhere? How many air cargo companies would just increase ground shipments and charge a premium for much fewer air parcels? One thing would happen for sure, flight training would be restricted to the very rich or ones who could get grants or scholarships--not necessarily a bad thing.

I'm just saying, be careful what you wish for. I am all for better wages and conditions in the industry, but it will require the involuntary sacrifice of many pilot's careers.


PS: It is interesting to note that the number of doctors greatly outnumbers the number of commercial pilots in Canada (65,000 vs 25,000). In fact, the number of doctors equals the number of active pilot medicals in Canada, whether they have a license or not.

So simple number reduction isn't going to equal doctor's wages for everybody. Pilots simply aren't as important as doctors.

[Cat Driver]

Just imagine what would happen if all the truck drivers decided to stop work?

How long would it be before the grocery stores were out of fresh food?

[scopiton]

Pilots simply aren't as important as doctors.

it doesn't mean they aren't worth nothing.
what CAT just said :
when you see the mess and all the people in trouble when aircrafts can't go because of a major snow storm, it gives you a pretty good idea about what would happen if every pilot in this country would decide to stay on the ground for 1 single day. It would show what their role is in this economy and would set their value in par with the losses created from this shutdown.
I know this will never happen, it was just to demonstrate that a professional groupe always has a value. Yours to decide what you're worth and to refuse insulting terms and conditions that won't even allow you to pay all your bills, whatever the equipment is.

[iflyforpie]

I never said they weren't important or that the job we do isn't difficult or dangerous. But how could you justify paying pilots the average doctor's salary of 200,000+ per year when practically anybody can walk out with a commercial license in 12 months?

Remember the controller's strike in the early 80s? (I don't, but I read history). Here again was a group of fairly well-trained professionals holding people's lives in their hands, performing an essential service, who wanted more money. Ronald Reagan fired them all, the union disbanded, and after getting the military to help out for a while they eventually trained up a bunch of new civilian controllers. Many of those who continued strike action never worked ATC again.

Where we start seeing the wages go up is when you possess unique skills that aren't easy to get. A training captain with tens of thousands of hours is going to command a doctor's salary (though usually later in his or her career).


I'll say again, I'm all for better salaries and working conditions. But rather than be burdened by an association, why don't you make the pledge to not work for less money or in bad conditions yourself? I have done both and took two years off of commercial flying because I refused to work for cheap or shady operators. The company I am with now has not had an accident in its entire existence, over 20 years. It has also faithfully paid me a salary I can raise a family on.

[Cat Driver]

when practically anybody can walk out with a commercial license in 12 months?

Hell it can be done in four months.

[CPLMike89]

The "Bar" association is a good comparison. Lets not confuse union with College or association. Both are possible but both are very different. Personally a College or association that governs licensing, minimum wages and working conditions would be ideal as a start. A national seniority list is a completly different animal all together.

A fee guide and a code of ethics on the working conditions side of things would go a long way to re-establishing a little integrity into this profession. You can work for more than the fee guide BUT NOT LESS and yes, license suspension and/or fine would be a possible consequence to bust'n the rules. Before folks jump on me it's nothing TC doesn't do already we would just add proper "behavior" as a professional pilot to a list of possible infractions.

+1 well said, I would fully support this kind of movement.

[teacher]

Where we start seeing the wages go up is when you possess unique skills that aren't easy to get. A training captain with tens of thousands of hours is going to command a doctor's salary (though usually later in his or her career).


I'll say again, I'm all for better salaries and working conditions. But rather than be burdened by an association, why don't you make the pledge to not work for less money or in bad conditions yourself? I have done both and took two years off of commercial flying because I refused to work for cheap or shady operators.

2 great points here. But I only partly agree with the first one. We do have very unique skills and despite what a few on here say you can't get a someone off the street and into an airplane flying commercially in 4 months, no way no how, 12 months maybe. Again some of you guys keep deminishing our profession, not sure why. "Cat" had a point, if we're not so unique than if we all quit it wouldn't be such a big deal right? Why are airlines legislated back to work if it's that easy and of no concern to the economy?

One of the goals of this association should be to enforce a fee guide/pay scale that ALL pilots must adhere to. The abundance of cheap labour doesn't make it right for us to agree to be it.

[Tanker299]

We are our own worst enemy in this situation. There will always be a guy willing to bend over and take the short term pain for long term gain. Without being forced it just wont happen, how do you black list those people. I know people who fly Multi Turboprops for FREE just because they want get into an 704/705 op, and they get what they want. Nice guys finish last. CP's/HR dont help as they hire these people and thus the cycle continues. I see 2 holes that need to be plugged.

[The Old Fogducker]

There was an excellent Transport Canada Inspector in the Edmonton Office about 30 to 35 years ago named Jim Dyer ... long since deceased. I learned a lot from him, not only about flying and flight instruction, but about life's philosophies.

One of his sayings has stuck with me and applies to this thread quite nicely regarding people who make their way in life on their own vision of the future and will do whatever it takes to reach their goal, vs those who are strong advocates of a seniority based system where the person does nothing except avoid being fired, and eventually makes it to the top of the operational ranks of an oganization.

"Welcome to Canadian aviation ... where it's National Screw Your Buddy Week all year long."

OFD

[teacher]

In many other fields the names and offences are published in their association's publication. I have family members and friends in the medical, phsyio and dental fields and it's there for all people to see.

"Dr. So and So performed "X" procedure against section "ABC" of the code of ethics and was fined $$$$"

Unintentional accidents are a different story but working for free or below fee guide, paying for PPCs and training bonds should be covered. Everyone talks about "keeping your word" and "protecting companies" but how about protecting ourselves and sadly from our selves. So many more professions do it (that some claim are more prestigious), why not us.

[iflyforpie]

Again some of you guys keep deminishing our profession, not sure why.

It's not diminishing it, it is simply bringing it back to reality from those who would try and make us equal to doctors in terms of education, skill set, and responsibility.

In many other fields the names and offences are published in their association's publication. I have family members and friends in the medical, phsyio and dental fields and it's there for all people to see.

"Dr. So and So performed "X" procedure against section "ABC" of the code of ethics and was fined $$$$"

Unintentional accidents are a different story but working for free or below fee guide, paying for PPCs and training bonds should be covered. Everyone talks about "keeping your word" and "protecting companies" but how about protecting ourselves and sadly from our selves. So many more professions do it (that some claim are more prestigious), why not us.

In my own personal and painful experience, these associations are good at circling the wagons to protect errant doctors, keeping the letter but not the spirit of the ethics they claim to uphold.

[teacher]

It's not diminishing it, it is simply bringing it back to reality from those who would try and make us equal to doctors in terms of education, skill set, and responsibility.

Personally I think our profession has been brought down to reality enough in the last 3 decades don't you think?

As for skill set and responsibilty I still think we are almost equal. When a doctor makes a mistake one person dies and they are fine. If we screw up 10, 100 or 200 die and guess what, we're dead too. If that's not reponsibilty I don't know what is. There's no secret skill to being a doctor, when you've done one surgery 100s of times it's not hard it's routine, just like fly'n a plane. Sure they do more "school" but getting a CPL/MIFR/float or instructor rating costs almost as much as med school. They get paid for residancy and more than an entry level pilot at that.

Fine we're not the same but we're not that much different either.

[5x5]

The biggest place the doctor-pilot comparison falls down is that doctors are paid from the public purse, so in a sense money is no object. Everyone uses doctors so taxpayers accept very large medical budgets and the associated taxes. Hospitals don't have to make a profit to survive.

Pilots are paid by a company trying to survive. Money is a very big object.

For everyone that says "Don't work for a low wage" - how about you state what you think the base rate should be for all the various types of piloting jobs? The advice to an inexperienced pilot not to work cheap has no value since they have no way to know what is too low.

If we could put out a list of rates - then as individuals everyone could manage themselves. No one would work for low wages and companies that couldn't afford to pay at least the base rate would just have to deal with it - either ante up or shut down.

And since $$ seems to be the main focus of this proposed organization then maybe the organization isn't even necessary?

[modi13]

The biggest place the doctor-pilot comparison falls down is that doctors are paid from the public purse, so in a sense money is no object. Everyone uses doctors so taxpayers accept very large medical budgets and the associated taxes. Hospitals don't have to make a profit to survive.

Precisely. Doctors provide an essential service in a non-profit industry, and lawyers can charge whatever they want, but in aviation a 5% profit margin is excellent. It's a good year if the company doesn't have to borrow money to pay its bills. If we were to raise salaries by $20000 per year the owners of most companies would just lock the door and walk away; very few of the smaller ones are incorporated, so the owners would personally bear any responsibility to pay their employees and wouldn't be willing to give money out of their own pockets. The ones that stayed in business would have to raise fares to the point that no one would bother, or could afford, to fly, and the industry would die.
I think pilots should be paid according to their skills, experience and the type of work they do, but one can't simply set a base dollar figure on that. Does the pilot who flies patrols four months per year and doesn't have to load or brief passengers deserve the same amount as a Twin Otter pilot who busts his ass 14 hours a day moving freight? What if they live in cities with different costs of living? What if one considers having a vehicle and cable essential living expenses but the other can get by without? The situation isn't as black and white as it's been made out here.

[Slats]

It is ironic that in this thread that tries to proclaim pilots are professionals on par with doctors, there are so many glaring failures in spelling and basic English.

[stick'n'rudder]

Like communism love the idea, but unworkable in real life.

Someone who's lived in both communist and western cultures roughly half and half, I can tell you that the west is just as unworkable. It lets far too many idiots do what they want, then praises them for it!

Just look at this matter in hand - A profession that once used to be quite respected has 'gone to the dogs' cause someone decided that airlines' money was #1 item of concern. West for ya!

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As far as this thread goes, it seems everyone is obsessed with commercial flying. What about folks who just wanna do it for themselves? How about this hypothetical union having some goals of standardizing the quality of training and reducing the associated costs?

[teacher]

How about this hypothetical union having some goals of standardizing the quality of training and reducing the associated costs?

It's already too cheap to learn to fly, ask any instructor how much they make.

Honestly it shouldn't be our problem if companies can't stay in business by paying proper salaries. The industry will regulate itself and business will carry on, it has to and will. The sky will not fall. Most other industries pass on costs to the consumer/customer. In aviation it gets passed on to the employee. It's not pilots that are in the wrong here we just havn't had a way to fight this downward turn.

As for pilots vs doctors you are right, it is the public purse and it is hard to compare. What I'm trying to say though is that we are not "just pilots" and should instill and expect a greater amount of respect for what we do. If people don't like it they can walk. We are an essential force in the world economy and have a ton of leverage but choose not to use it.

[Tanker299]

Im sure it would be hotly contested but I am sure a few people could get together and make some sort of unofficial matrix that pilots could reference and make some personal choices on the wage they should take. Something similar to the contrail chart with some more detail for Weight, TT, Type of opeartion, # of engines and time with company?

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