Homeland Security requiring PAX lists - NOT US bound...

[smellysox]

Can't find a thread on this on this site, but following the recent KLM incident where a 744 en-route Mexico was denied US overfly rights as a couple of pax on-board matched names on the no-fly list - but the Dutch Government allowed them to board and fly and subsequently the two pax departed through London with no problem...so a bit of a drapeau rouge here, so to speak.

An emergency amendment is now being considered by Homeland Security which will compel all carriers requiring overfly rights, irrespective of destination, to submit PAX data to Homeland Security, who reserve the right to refuse entry to US airspace.

This could even affect Canadian domestic services, should they dip into US airspace...

What's the views of the lads and lassies out there on this new twist ?

[. ._]

I double plus love Big Brother.

[ahramin]

If it makes sense to deny them entry onto US bound planes, it makes sense to deny them entry onto US overflights. Heck seattle might be a decent target. An evil doer could board a 747 in china going to vancouver and make a big dent in the boeing plant. I am sure the homeland security department would like to have everyone in the world denying flight privileges to Cat Stevens.

[shitdisturber]

I am sure the homeland security department would like to have everyone in the world denying flight privileges to Cat Stevens.

His singing alone ought to be reason enough for that.

[Right Seat Captain]

I suppose that would mean some new system for private flights cutting through american airspace also? Currently only a flight plan is necessary...but now a passenger list mayhaps?

[LH]

Considering Canadian Immgration's record, I wouldn't blame the Americans one little bit. I think our record stinks, so I can imagine what they say behind closed doors. Hell, there's a whole bunch of illegal immigrants that Immigration openly admits that they have lost track of and some of them were on a list to be deported and they let them walk around free until the moment came to kick them out......and now they're missing someplace. Loosing that case in Vancouver concerning the Air India disaster didn't help our case any either.

[shitdisturber]

I can blame them quite easily actually. Since this is all a knee jerk reaction to 9/11 which many American politicians tried to blame on our lax border security; which, as far as I remember, was never proved. What it was however; was a smokescreen to hide the fact that each and every one of those scumbags, did penetrate American security.

[LH]

On this one Shitdisturber, the Canadian Immigration record speaks for itself and it has a long history. You can talk about "knee jerk" reactions all you want, but if the US had the same "laissez-faire" and lax immigration rules as us, I wouldn't be allowing ANY Americans across the border into Canada. We rate the worst in the G8 countries for the naivety of our rules and restrictions. It is only PURE luck that the WTC crowd did not enter the US from Canada and we all know it. Only a short time later we had an attempt at Blaine, to take a large amount of explosives from Canada into the US and to LA to start some further "landscaping".....and again that was luck that it didn't succeed.......then what would we have said? Maybe you can explain where the 300 Sri Lankans are that landed on the coast of NS or where the freighter load of Chinese are that landed on the BC coastline. Do you realize how many of those Chinese we housed and fed and allowed to walk around while waiting there? Do you realize how many disappeared and still haven't been found? I think any idiot knows what further border they crossed. Canada knew both groups were enroute before they entered Canadian waters and let them come. The Americans threatened to blow the s.o.b.'s out of the water if they didn't exit quickly. Sorry bud, but on this subject, I'd rather Canada had a "knee jerk" of some kind, instead of letting practically anyone into the country......and the record proves it. Our problem is that we might have knees to "jerk", but we're lacking some serious "backbone". We didn't have a major skyscaper taken-out in downrown TO either, killing thousands and I didn't have any friends or relatives killed either. So the Americans can "knee jerk" all they want to and I'm surprised they didn't do it sooner or with more force.

[taildragger]

No disrespect intended LH but the American borders are also far from secure.
Just have a look at the number of illegal immigrants crossing over from Mexico and the sorts of problems that the border patrols are facing there just stopping people from walking into the U.S. It is a problem that we all share.

[Icebound]

No disrespect intended LH .... It is a problem that we all share.

It is also pretty much a red herring.

The overwhelming number of illegal immigrants want to just melt into the background, not bother anybody, and eke out a living for themselves. Sure they should not be here, and sure we should not be losing track of them. But very few of them pose a real threat.

We can blame the Immigration department, but we also have ourselves to blame. We get all uptight about requiring citizens to carry an idendity card, because it smacks of big brother and invasion of privacy.... and we aren't paranoid, but we know the government will use them to get us.... which of course they will, but I digress.

It has always amazed me that our government (or the American for that matter), does not really have a way to readily identify who its citizens are or aren't.



As for terrorists, we have had them since time immemorial, and will continue to have them... And we have quite enough home-grown ones.... organized crime terrorizes merchants and citizens, abusive husbands terrorize wives, bullies terrorize children, everybody terrorizes the elderly. Most major urban centers have a warning out about a serial rapist and/or a serial killer at one time or another each year.

1,500 American women die and a million or so are batterred every year by their boyfriend/husband, but this doesn't make the "terorrist" news. 700,000 are raped.

There are 6 million violent occurrences against a person every year in our so-called civilized society, but this doesn't make the terrorist news.

Yes, none of these are as spectacularly newsworthy as an airplane falling out of the sky into a fully-occupied skyscraper, but it is no less real in the numbers that die, are maimed, whose lives are destroyed.

In that context, maybe some of our responses are "knee-jerk".

[North Shore]

Shitdisturber wrote:

ahramin wrote:
I am sure the homeland security department would like to have everyone in the world denying flight privileges to Cat Stevens.


His singing alone ought to be reason enough for that.

Now that is seriously disturbing some shit that really didn't need disturbing.

[LH]

taildragger-----you obviously have little experience in the border States with Mexico.......you don't "just walk across the border", regardless of what you've seen or read. Take a trip down there and use nothing but your eyes and then you'll be saying to yourself, "geez, this isn't like what I saw on TV". The US Immigration and Border Patrol just spent $170M on an order for helcopters to patrol our border........and they'll be ARMED. Some are already in service and doing so. It's their country, not ours and so THEY set the rules about who gets in and who doesn't,........and we don't appear to have any rules.......cause Canadians "are friendly folks"and nobody would hurt us, eh? Ask some American 1 year before the WTC if what happened could happen and they'd have given you "the horse laugh" and told you to get your head examined.

ALL borders of any country can are have been penetrated since time began. They even had a Berlin Wall that ran through many countries and countless thousands tunnelled-under, climbed over and flew over it in all sorts of contraptions. It is one thing to have people coming into your country illegally and another to p[roviding a loose "open door" to them. We have in Montreal an ex-South Vietnamese General who was knee-deep in the drug trade of the Far East when he came here as a multi-millionaire........and still lives there. They have tried to have him deported for 15 years plus and he just keeps appealing. The average time that it will take, if a person goes through all the Appeal procedures open to them is 8 years.......no matter how they came into the country. When Hong Kong was about to be taken over by the Chinese, Canadian Immigration had a policy........submit $250,000 Canadian and you were welcomed with open arms and theb intention was that you would start a business. The RCMP Organized Crime warned at that time that they were asking for trouble doing that because the Triads would be stomped by the Chinese and the Triads knew it.......so "stage right" to Canada. That was considered a racial statement and the furour began. Care to check on the numbers of organized crime families that now exist in Vancouver and how many of them came from Hong Kong at the time of the Chinese take-over?

Icebound ------ If you believe that the average illegal immigrant has no intention but to be plain old ordinary like us, then perhaps we should dispense with the costs of the Immigration Dept and let some Commissionaires take over the job. You might want to think on this too. For $50 USD, I can have a Canadian Passport made in a back alley shop in Hong Kong while I wait BECAUSE they are and always have been a total absolute joke security-wise on the international stage. Do you know how often other countries change the security codes embedded in their Passports?.......about every 1-6 months. Canada just changed hers this year and they are now coming out as new issue..........do you know when the last time was that they changed the security codes?.......1947!

Using your guidelines as to who is defined as a terrorist, then we'll just include Paul Bernardo, Karla Homulka, Al Capone and the Hell's Angels. When any of those folks fly loaded airliners into the CN Tower in Toronto, a bunch of large office buildings in TO or The Bayshore Inn in Vancouver, killing 1000 - 2000 innocent people all at once, then I'll call them terrorists.......until then, your definition is a lot different than mine.

[Icebound]

...

Using your guidelines as to who is defined as a terrorist, then we'll just include Paul Bernardo, Karla Homulka, Al Capone and the Hell's Angels. When any of those folks fly loaded airliners into the CN Tower in Toronto, a bunch of large office buildings in TO or The Bayshore Inn in Vancouver, killing 1000 - 2000 innocent people all at once, then I'll call them terrorists.......until then, your definition is a lot different than mine.

Exactly.

And I really don't care what you call them. I care only how they affect me, or my family, or your family. And over a five or ten year span, we are a lot more likely to be affected by an act of violence from someone just like any of those you mentioned, than we ever are from an airplane flying into the CN tower.

I am not saying to ignore the threat from such. I am saying to put it into perspective, and to react and spend proportionately to the threats.

[ Its just too bad that over the years we all want to take home more of our pay, and let the military and a bunch of other services slide. We have ridiculed our politicians and civil servants as being incompetant and useless, and instead of attracting highly skilled administrators, those professions have succumbed to our own self-fulfilling prophecies. Now we reap the rewards. But I digress.... ]

Yes, the passport system should get fixed and the military should get fixed, and flying planes into building should be prevented, and drunk driving should get stopped, and battered women should be protected, and ....

Hell, there are even reliable estimates of 10,000 unecessary deaths per year in Canada as a result of "hospital induced adverse effects" that should be eliminated.

Just be sure you don't overspend (and over-regulate) because of the spectacular... at the expense of that which is mundane but which is also much more perilous to day-to-day life.






.

[Mach1]

Canada Not a Super-Highway for Terrorists: Interpol Boss
Canadian Press via http://www.canada.com ^ | March 31, 2005 | John Ward


Posted on 03/31/2005 7:45:18 AM PST by NorthOf45


Canada not a super-highway for terrorists: Interpol boss

John Ward
Canadian Press
March 31, 2005

OTTAWA - - While some Americans have suggested that Canada is a superhighway for terrorists bound for their country, the head of Interpol, himself an American, says no.

Ronald Noble, secretary general of the international criminal police body, said Canada works hard in the fight against terrorism.

"I am a citizen of the United States and I say that, with all due respect to my country, my country sometimes gets it half right," he said.

"If it's been said that Canada is a superhighway, I would say they got it half right: Canada is super, but it's not a highway."

Noble, a former law professor at New York University and one-time chief law enforcement officer for the U.S. Treasury Department, was making his first visit to Canada since taking office four years ago.

He said Interpol is making a major effort to improve communications among the world's police forces and to promote information-sharing.

The 182-country body now has a fledgling DNA database, with more than 14,000 entries. It began with only 73 DNA profiles two years ago.

He said the database poses no threat to privacy because there are no names attached. But it allows police in one country to determine if a DNA sample from their crime scene matches that of a crime in another country, allowing the two countries to pool their information to pursue the suspect.

Noble said Canada has played a key role in helping promote co-operative policing.

"Canada contributes in every way one could hope in terms of sharing information," he said.

He said Interpol has set its priorities in crime-fighting: terrorism, financial and high-tech crime, trafficking and sexual exploitation of women and children and drugs and organized criminals.

Co-operation is the best defence, he said, and Canada is showing the way.

"I believe that every country in the world has a responsibility to do all it can to keep its citizens safe, its neighbour's citizens safe and the world community safe," he said.

"As secretary-general of Interpol, whatever you call the highest category of support and participation we have, Canada is in that category."

Noble said Interpol acts as a clearinghouse for information and a support service for member police forces. It has no armed agents of its own, issues no warrants of its own and depends on member countries for technical and manpower support.

RCMP Commissioner Giuliano Zaccardelli, a supporter of Interpol who squired Noble around Ottawa during his visit, said he's a major believer in working with other police.

That's what helps keep the Canada-U.S. border as secure as it can be.

"Can we guarantee a 100 per cent? Nobody can.

"But I tell you we work extremely hard and work extremely well in a very integrated and co-ordinated fashion on the Canada side and in an integrated and seamless way with our American partners."

The more you learn, the more you know... because... knowledge is power!!

[LH]

Perhaps the gentleman quoted in the article could explain how three KNOWN BEFORE-HAND terrorists got into Canada and Immigration was advised in advance of the back-grounds of these three and totally ignored these facts.....and treated them as common refugees. These facts presented were a combination of MI6, RCMP, CSIS and from the Indian Intelligence Service Chief who was himself interviewed for all to see by CBC. These 3 men later went on to be involved in the Air India bombing. They were found not guilty through "in-service" mistakes, but this did nothing to remove what was proven about their activities even BEFORE they arrived in Canada.

This question comes from an ex-RCMP Member and once he's done with that question, I have more to follow. With all due respect to the present Commissioner of the RCMP, his service background shows no experience whatsoever in intelligence gathering.....nor do you need same to be an RCMP Commissioner. So cancel his name from the equation and also any statement that he speaks for ALL Members of the RCMP. His Office allows him to state same, but "Heaven help" the RCMP Member who would denounce or deny his statements. When he supposedly speaks for ALL 14,000 Members of the RCMP it is done without ANY consultation whatsoever with his Service Members. If one wishes to advance their career, one doesn't deny what the Chairman of the Board has stated, no matter what your rank.......unless you are 6 months from retirement.

The record of Immigration Canada is well-known and most Canadians have read about the fiascos that have taken place. The list of deportees that have gone missing and are still missing has been largely forgotten, not known about or not cared about by the general Canadian public, but they number into the hundreds. Many of these people are not "supposed innocents" who just happen to have done things the wrong way or ran afoul of some Immigration technicality......they are the likes of Hamas, Bosnian, Albanian, IRA terrorists, drug lords and/or known ex-personnel of security services who have indulged in war crimes and acts of murder.

The prime example and it is a matter of public record, is the case of the Somalian warlord. While our troops and American troops were battling his insurgents in Somalia, he sent his wife and children to live in Toronto. Whilst here, they were provided with living accomodations and welfare at the cost of the Canadian taxpayer. While his wife was residing here, she left the country on 3 occasions with her children to visit or husband in Paris and returned afterwards....to resume being supported by the Canadian tapayer each time under the sponsorship of Immigration Canada......because it was deemed that she did not have funds to support herself on each occasion.

Nothing of what has been stated above is my opinion and is a matter of public record. If someone wishes to compare people who do home invasions, B & E's, muggings, knifngs etc, etc. to the folks above, then they are entitled to their opinion. Fortunately, none of the above have the inclination, resources, organization or knowledge to get a very tiny vial of biological material and drop it into the drinking water reservoirs of major Canadian cities.....nor have they signalled that they ever would. However, the defined "terrorist" organizations have demonstrated and spoken of their intent and that they are capable, are driven to and have the abilities to obtain same.......and serve up their lives to do so in the process.

The fact that the gentlemen quoted is Head of Interpol means little. It has been a "castrated organization" for decades and his opinion is as valid as the Head of another "castrated" organization.......the United Nations......and he too is now under investigation. Perhpaps he'd also like to converse with a noted Canadian and international terrorism expert, Mr. Peter St. John, who would offer a much different opinion and supported by evidence.