Another Dock hand job!

[DHCdriver]

I don't know about you folks , but I am sick of seeing those dock jobs offering the lucky applicant a chance for a checkout. We all know they are only going to hire some poor bugger with a fresh CPL, and promise him a chance to put his hands on the controls(right seat) if he puts in 100+ hrs aweek. I don't know if I am starting my Saturday off wrong or I just need a holiday. Sorry but this just erks the shit out of me. DHCdriver.

[CYCG]

How did YOU start out in this industry?

[phillyfan]

If you don't like it then buy your own planes and start your own company. Then you can do whatever the hell you please.

[DHCdriver]

How did YOU start out in this industry?

Not on somebody's dock I'll tell you that. I started off on wheels, built my time up, flew floats on days off. 25 years later here I am, doing just fine

If you don't like it then buy your own planes and start your own company. Then you can do whatever the hell you please.

If I went that direction, I would hire a dockhand to do that position, and a pilot to do the flying part. Phillyfan I saw your add your one of them. You want some newbie to wash your airplane and dig a shit hole at one of your camps for 3.00/hr and then promise him a flying job. How are you starting a pilot off this way, how is he honing his skills to be a good float pilot when he's digging a hole or staining your camp. Hire him to fly, teach him those skills and he'll probably stay with you for a while. To all you guys using these guys this way

[ehbuddy]

Ontario has a program where they offer employers a generous amount of money to hire summer students. It basically amounts to 60% of the minimum wage. So what happens is the bush operators do not hire local students as they are lazy and opt to go after pilots looking for the first job and who will work their asses off for little reward. When the season is over and the pilot figures it out he will never get a chance to fly the employers do not care because they just repeat the cycle again next year.

Buyer beware.

[phillyfan]

You got'er all figured out eh DHC? Strange how somebody with 25 years in the business can be so clueless. Thats fine, I've run into plenty of pilots who think they are going to change the world.
I get dozens of resumes from 200hr pilots who I know nothing about. The best way for me to find out if a guy is serious is to bring him up north and let him work the dock. During this time I will find out if he can handle being away from his mommy, before I waste time and money on training him.
We don't own camps. We fly year round charter in remote parts of Northern Ontario and I need to know that a guy has basic common sense and knows how things work before I send him north for a month to fend for himself. Were not a flying school! If you want to fly here you need 2000hrs+ float and an internal reference, or you start on the dock.
P.S we have running water, no camps, our deck is treated wood and we pay more then $3.00 an hour.

[sky's the limit]

Keep it civil SVP.

stl

[5400AirportRdSouth]

You know, I have to admit.. I'm on the fence on this one. You both have very good points.

Before I did a season as a dockhand, I can honestly say I didn't know my ass from a hole in the ground about how a lodge / outpost operation is run and all the other skills you need to really be of value to an operator.

However..... Had that operator been up front and honest with me, that the job would have little to no flying, I probably could have learned the same thing by going with another job that did.

My opinion, if you have a fresh CPL and a float rating, and flying floats is what you want to do, look for a float flying job. If you can't find one ( and you most likely wont, lets be honest ), grab a spot on the dock and make the most of it.

The operator can dangle all the carrots they want, if you go into it expecting little to no flying and put your back into it, you might be pleasantly surprised that a summer of honest effort can pay off. You'll probably meet a bunch of other dockhands and pilots, you'll learn a bunch of stuff you had no idea you needed to know and if you are very lucky and the operator you are working for has any integrity, you might actually get that checkout and invite to come back and fly for them as a pilot the next year. Unless you're a tool, then all bets are off.

Or, you can let the summer slip away flipping burgers at home because you couldn't find a flying job with your fresh license and next january when the float jobs are starting to peek through the snow, you'll still have 200 hours, a float rating and no idea how to get a drum of fuel into a float plane.

But I do agree with both of you.

Its obvious there are operators out there taking advantage of the situation.

It's also obvious that hiring a fresh CPL over the phone is a hell of a risk.... You can do all the training you want before the season opens, but its pretty easy to hide "stupid" on a resume...ask me how I know.

[DHCdriver]

Strange how somebody with 25 years in the business can be so clueless.

My friend its not that i'm clueless or I want to change the world is I've been there. I flew floats 12-13 years before I went to the 704/705 world. And I left because of operators abusing young guys trying to land his/hers first job. I don't disagree with no dock work, its all part of the learning. How to catch a A/C on a windy day, loading, and just getting to know that A/C he/she will be flying. BUT! to get them to do every else besides loading and flying the damn airplane. To me its just taking advantage of these guys because you know they want to sit in that shinny 185 tied to the dock.

If you want to fly here you need 2000hrs+ float

Why would you even offer your dockhand applicants a checkout, when you require those kind of times. You know damn well your insurance company not going to touch these so called 200hr wonders. To me it's false advertising, Next add tell your dockhands you need 2000hrs floats and see how many applications you get.

Buyer beware.

Exactly, if only this clueless old float driver could change the world. Kids stay away.

[DHCdriver]

5400 I agree 100% with you. Learning all those skills are essential in becoming a good float driver, because thats the world you will be working in. This is one of those conversations better off with a bunch of guys, with a large pot of coffee, and just hash it out. I'm not good at arguing with a computer. I'm better at it face to face, where I can argue my comments made on this post. My bottom line is, because I don't want to get in a pissing match with everybody is hire a pilot to fly your airplane, learn how to load it, fuel it and how to dock it on windy days. Don't make him wash your car, cut your grass at your house, or walk your mother-inlaws dog( You know what I mean). That kid will appreciate the job at the end of the day, and probably come back year after year. These are just my opinions right or wrong. DHCdriver.

[Cat Driver]

This is a very touchy subject.

I personally feel that if an operator hires a dock hand with a chance to fly there should be a set number of hours per month the dock hand will be given flying time.

That way both parties get a fair chance to see how long their association with each other lasts.

[Kzanol]

3 bucks an hour is bang on. I know first hand that the 'pilot', who was going to work the dock at the advertised location, was only going to get paid $250/week. This was only until the end of June and then the job was over. I hate cheap operators!

[phillyfan]

This is typical Avcanada. Offer a job and then spend a week reading emails from people who don't have the slightest clue.

Kzanol. I think your buddy was somewhere else. We were looking for a guy year round and the pay is more then $1000 a month.

DHC. Our insurance company lets us put whoever "we want" in whatever "we want" We have no minimums.

We have our guy now anyways. He'll start on the dock. He'll be on the C-206 in a couple months and if it works out he'll be flying year round. For the rest of you. If you listen to DHC then you risk living another summer in your Mothers basement. Taking this kind of bad advice is very risky for "new" float pilots.
I'm giving a guy the chance to fly a floatplane this season. You could always take a stand with DHC and see how far it gets you. I'm guessing it will get you about 200 or 300hrs less in an airplane by freezeup.

[DHCdriver]

He'll be on the C-206 in a couple months

WOW! and you want 2000hrs float time! I sure hope your paying him that. For some reason you have it in your head your doing some poor bugger a favor. I beg to differ and I will leave it at that.

P.S. Get your new guy to PM me I would love to talk to him All said and done have a good summer. DHCdriver.

[Les Habitants]

He'll be on the C-206 in a couple months

WOW! and you want 2000hrs float time! I sure hope your paying him that. For some reason you have it in your head your doing some poor bugger a favor. I beg to differ and I will leave it at that.

P.S. Get your new guy to PM me I would love to talk to him All said and done have a good summer. DHCdriver.

Sorry dude, while I agree with you on most of your points, I think you're off on this one (regarding phillyfan). Yes, I totall ythink it's wrong to dangle a carrot over a new pilots head while making him do crap jobs, not all operators are like that. Some operators operate with integrity and are worth working for, and it doesn't sound like Phillyfan is one of the former.

I don't think any new graduate "deserves" a pilot job right off the bat. If they get one, great! I got my first turbine job with less than a year of working the ramp, and I got lucky. But anyone who graduates flight school thinking "F working the ground, I'm a professional pilot (sorry, no you're not), and I deserve the flight line" needs an attitude adjustment. I know, because I was one, and when I got into the industry (especially when I started flying) I went through quite the culture shock..

[flying4dollars]

A job opportunity is a job opportunity. Its like buying a used car, if you go in uneducated, the risk is on you. If you go in knowing what to expect, by asking the right questions and doing some research, then your mitigating the risks of being used.

Personally, if you go into a job with a CPL and expect to fly and make big bucks, and take the job without employing due diligence, then its hard to feel sympathy if you don't get into an airplane and the pay is poor. If you do your research, and ask questions before you accept a job, and you still want it, then I don't see what the problem is. If you don't feel good, don't take it. Everyone looks at every opportunity a different way. An opportunity to one person might be a step back to another. However, like Cat pointed out, I do agree if a guy is working hard and seems to fit in well, why not give him a few hours a week in the plane to reward him.

On another note, what is with this notion that a guy with a fresh CPL is ALWAYS a kid living in mom and dad's basement? Most fresh CPL's may be highschool or college grads (I'm assuming), but it doesn't always mean they're living in parents basements. You guys say it like they ALL come out of school with that attitude. I've met many young guys that have gotten freshly minted licenses that were more than willing to venture out on their own, wherever that may be. It's a stereotype that some guys need to get over.

My $0.02

[cdnpilot77]

3 bucks an hour is bang on. I know first hand that the 'pilot', who was going to work the dock at the advertised location, was only going to get paid $250/week. This was only until the end of June and then the job was over. I hate cheap operators!

Please explain your "first hand" knowledge! I worked for the aformentioned company previously on the dock and although there were things i liked and things i didnt like about the company (as with any company anyone in this industry has ever worked for) the pay was never a concern.

[iflyforpie]

I wonder how much things would change if operators were only allowed to hire unskilled dock hands? Would you be able to attract people from the general labourer pool with your current wages and conditions?

I think dock work is a certain amount necessary so somebody can learn the ground side of the operation and to separate the men from the boys, but I think that it also is a cheap form of labour that is ruthlessly abused by certain operators who know that hopefuls will do 'anything for anything' for a shot at a seat.


I've never been employed as a CPL in a dedicated ground job. But I have absolutely no problem to this day running a fuel hose or a plunger.

[DHCdriver]

I think that it also is a cheap form of labour that is ruthlessly abused by certain operators who know that hopefuls will do 'anything for anything'

Clueless her agrees 100%.

[Kzanol]

[quote="cdnpilot77"]Please explain your "first hand" knowledge! I worked for the aformentioned company previously on the dock and although there were things i liked and things i didnt like about the company (as with any company anyone in this industry has ever worked for) the pay was never a concern.[/quote

I talked with the guy face to face, and phillyfan your right. We aren't talking about the same job.