YTZ-YUL-YTZ VIVE la difference!

[A321]

Flew between YTZ and YUL 29/5/11. Out on Porter in the afternoon... 30 Min late due to mechanical but the in-flight service(WD lite) made up for it! Returned the same day 4 hrs later on AC Express to YTZ. The YUL agent had no clue if AC had a shuttle at YTZ to the Fairmont. The flight departed on time. We were put in a hold over Peterborough due to T-showers @ YTZ airport. After the CB's moved south... commenced the approach for YTZ and on final with gear down... overshot. Pilot announced the YTZ Tower closed at 2 minutes to 23:00 for noise. Went into another hold to land at YYZ and waited :45 for ground crews to figure out how to attach the bridge to the Q400. We departed YUL @20:45 & arrived in YYZ after 00:00. Was offered a bus pass to the Fairmont for 01:00.

Porter departed YUL :15 min after my AC flight & landed in YTZ ahead of us. AC Express showed their inexperience. Porter need not worry about the competition IMHO. My question is why would AC even bother entering the YTZ market with a B team, done on the cheap?

[Troubleshot]

I don't think experience has much to do with what you listed here. It is more to do with the challenges of operating into Toronto Island.

The customer service maybe better at Porter but weather and curfews cannot be changed.

[airmech07]

Porter need not worry about the competition IMHO. My question is why would AC even bother entering the YTZ market with a B team, done on the cheap?

I totally agree, they should have went with Jazz, we've been there and have experienced maintenance and ramp personall for the job. It's too bad

[RFN]

.

[Doin' Good]

I've noticed that Sky Regional has been flying a lot of empty flights, and yet Porter continues to succeed with good pax loads.

[photofly]

They've only been flying a month. Give them six months or a year, then make a judgement.

[ChallengerDan]

They have flown a lot a empty seats, but loads are improving.
from what we can see at the gate, they must have gone from
10 seats at peak hour to half full, sometimes more. Not bad in only one month.

[dashx]

Pilot announced the YTZ Tower closed at 2 minutes to 23:00 for noise. Went into another hold to land at YYZ

Now you know there is a curfew at YTZ. Did you know if you land after hours at YTZ you get a fine?

You don't think Porter has ever landed after curfew?

Feel free to bend the law as much as you want........................

[dashx]

[$$&*^&^%& Double post.......

[ziggy]

How does Porter depart 15 minutes after AC and land before you at YTZ? Makes no sense at all.

[A321]

Home field advantage or Raccoon night vision....

[FICU]

How does Porter depart 15 minutes after AC and land before you at YTZ? Makes no sense at all.

"The flight departed on time. We were put in a hold over Peterborough due to T-showers @ YTZ airport."

Maybe Porter found a way through the CBs?

[ziggy]

Doesn't really work like that. Kinda like when Im coming into Calgary, and there are thunderstorms around and everyone is holding. Just because I have found a "hole" doesn't mean I will be be coming in ahead of everyone else. I will still have to hold and wait for my turn. Something about this "review" doesn't sound right.

[FICU]

Doesn't really work like that. Kinda like when Im coming into Calgary, and there are thunderstorms around and everyone is holding. Just because I have found a "hole" doesn't mean I will be be coming in ahead of everyone else. I will still have to hold and wait for my turn. Something about this "review" doesn't sound right.

Not necessarily, if the airport isn't closed to ops you can still attempt an approach. I have elected to hold for CBs near an airport and listened to others who didn't want to hold, took the chance, and attempted approaches only to miss and head off to their alternates while I waited for the storms to pass and got in. Perhaps the SKYR crew requested to hold and Porter requested the approach?

[yycflyguy]

The customer service maybe better at Porter but weather and curfews cannot be changed.

Curfews can be extended or exempted. Happens all the time at YYZ. It just takes some foresight and co-ordination. Granted it is a little harder to co-ordinate on a 60 min sector.

[altiplano]

Curfews can be extended or exempted.

... for a lot of $$$. Better have a full A/C to make it close to worthwhile.

Doesn't really work like that. Kinda like when Im coming into Calgary, and there are thunderstorms around and everyone is holding. Just because I have found a "hole" doesn't mean I will be be coming in ahead of everyone else. I will still have to hold and wait for my turn. Something about this "review" doesn't sound right.

I disagree - if an aiport is closed sure. But if crews are just holding while they decide what to do it doesn't hold up every aircraft behind them. Maybe the Porter crew had pireps from other company aircraft that landed ahead or other information that SR didn't have. Maybe they requested a different routing? or a different approach?

Besides YYC is messed up. They want flow times and crossing times and everyone in a hold with sky clear and a million and 3 planes in the terminal area and 2 waiting to depart...

[Realitychex]

I've noticed that Sky Regional has been flying a lot of empty flights, and yet Porter continues to succeed with good pax loads.

Loads, schmoads.

BMW would be the number one automaker in the world if they cut their prices in half. They'd also be out of business in a few months.

The local restaurant location nearby fails every year, even though they have lots of customers. They need about $9 per head and only get about $7.50. The more they sell, the more they lose.

Porter talks a good game about it's success, but in business, that's measured in earnings. Without a profit, business is unsustainable. By virtue of selling tomorrows ever expanding inventory to pay todays bills, it can cashflow for a long long time, but eventually, that dries up.

The only independently verifiable financial data ever to appear from Porter clearly illustrated they lost profuse amounts of money operating their service. With $100 oil, direct, head to head competition and aircraft coming off the maintenance holiday since the last reports, it's difficult to come up with a compelling argument to suggest the operation is anything close to break-even.

[yycflyguy]

Curfews can be extended or exempted.

... for a lot of $$$. Better have a full A/C to make it close to worthwhile.

Less than a fine.

How much is it exactly for an exemption? Lots of times it is a paperwork exercise to steal a late arriving planes exemption and attach it to the early arrival.

Do you worry about flying through different airspace charging different rates? Cost of doing business.

[dream_big]

Porter departed YUL :15 min after my AC flight & landed in YTZ ahead of us. AC Express showed their inexperience.

First I would like to agree not call it AC express but instead Sky regional. Cause you're not only insulting Sky Regional but all jazz cma Georgian etc etc etc.

and there are a lot of factors you can't judge here because you don't have all the information. Maybe Sky Regional looked at their radar and decided that flying through the thunderstorms onto the approach was going to put their aircraft in jeopardy? So they decided to do the WISE decision and hold and wait for it to pass. And maybe at the same time Porter elected commence the approach because they decided they would take their chances and try the approach the best they could just so they could make it home?

See it can be viewed from very different angles and it doesn't mean you are flying with an inexperienced crew. Maybe just the opposite. Maybe you were flying with a VERY experienced crew that elected to make a safe decision and maybe porter made an unwise decision by continuing on? Just some food for thought.

[photofly]

How much is it exactly for an exemption? Lots of times it is a paperwork exercise to steal a late arriving planes exemption and attach it to the early arrival.

It's *very* expensive to land after-hours at CYTZ, and they have a very very agressive noise management policy. The only exemptions are for emergencies, otherwise - CYYZ it is.

[altiplano]

Curfews can be extended or exempted.

... for a lot of $$$. Better have a full A/C to make it close to worthwhile.

Less than a fine.

How much is it exactly for an exemption? Lots of times it is a paperwork exercise to steal a late arriving planes exemption and attach it to the early arrival.

Do you worry about flying through different airspace charging different rates? Cost of doing business.

I guess it depends on the fine - I have heard fines go from five into the tens of thousands. The airport is closed off-hours (medevac flights excepted) - there are no off-hour slots to swap for. They don't want you there late/early as it jeopardizes the viability of the airport and is heavily scrutinized by airport opponents.

[A321]

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/SKV7 ... /CYUL/CYTZ

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/POE4 ... /CYUL/CYTZ

[Gino Under]

I applaud dream_big

Could it be a new Captain at one airline (with higher landing minima than an experienced line Captain at the other airline) had to miss the approach? (bearing in mind, curfew, rushing the approach or any other TEM item you care to add)
Or, do most of you 'smart alecs' totally forget about the TEM factor on a dark and dirty night into YYZ or YTZ?
SNAFUs in the airline industry when weather throws a monkey wrench into the routine is not uncommon. Is it?

I wouldn't be too quick to judge a new operation this early in the game. They landed safely at their alternate, but that doesn't sell newspapers or find it's way into AvCanada. Apparently.

Gino Under
P.S. my dog's bigger than your dog

[Valhalla]

Porter talks a good game about it's success, but in business, that's measured in earnings. Without a profit, business is unsustainable. By virtue of selling tomorrows ever expanding inventory to pay todays bills, it can cashflow for a long long time, but eventually, that dries up.

The only independently verifiable financial data ever to appear from Porter clearly illustrated they lost profuse amounts of money operating their service. With $100 oil, direct, head to head competition and aircraft coming off the maintenance holiday since the last reports, it's difficult to come up with a compelling argument to suggest the operation is anything close to break-even.

Hey Realitychex - I just read that Porter's market share in the Golden Triangle is up to 25% versus Westjet's 15%. How's the free booze and the "50% off if we're late" working for you?

[yycflyguy]

I guess it depends on the fine - I have heard fines go from five into the tens of thousands. The airport is closed off-hours (medevac flights excepted) - there are no off-hour slots to swap for. They don't want you there late/early as it jeopardizes the viability of the airport and is heavily scrutinized by airport opponents.

Didn't answer my question. Exactly how much is an exemption? I doubt it is as expensive as you think.