Min. vectoring altitudes: When??

[gcanuel]

Hey all,

Maybe someone can answer this one, I unfortunately lack the knowledge in ATC!

Coming into a radar-covered airport, weather is around 4,800' overcast, we're operating IFR and coming from the south so our plan is to land visual on RWY 36, which has no IFR approaches on it.

ATC clears us direct the airport and down to 4,700', which is the MSA for our sector.

My question is: Can ATC clear me to the MVA (which I assume is lower) even though I'm direct the airport? If not, can he then give me vectors and then clear me at MVA so I can get a better visual on the airport?

Thanks for clarifying, I know nothing about this MVA other than it's the lowest altitude ATC uses when vectoring aircrafts from one sector to another.

G

[wordstwice]

To be cleared to an minimum vector altitude ATC should have you on a vector. That's the rule in Manops however in practice many controllers will use the MVA even if you are doing your own navigation.

The mistake alot of people make is assuming there is always a vectoring altitude available to controllers for every airport, that's simply not the case. If there is a vectoring attitude it is usually lower than published IFR altitudes but not always.

Just remember, even though you are in radar coverage does not mean ATC will have a radar vectoring altitude to use.

Hope that answers your question.

[Shadowfax]

ATC should not and legally CANNOT use the MRVA altitude unless they accept responsibility for navigation - ie vectors. I wouldn't accept clx below the MSA unless they accept obstacle clearance issues. Frankly I find it somewhat irresponsible by the other poster to suggest this is a standard practice.

VERY dangerous - maybe some of these younger types don't understand why MRVA's were established and like taking short cuts.........

[wordstwice]

Shadowfax,

First, I'm not a "younger type" second, it's not irresponsible of me to suggest that the use of vectoring altitudes without being on a vector is a practice in ATC. It's simply a fact and I know this first hand. If you don't like it, dont accept the clearance but don't throw mud at the messenger.

[Shadowfax]

To be cleared to an minimum vector altitude ATC should have you on a vector. That's the rule in Manops however in practice many controllers will use the MVA even if you are doing your own navigation.

I disagree and stand by the irresponsible comment - A pilot doesn't understand, asks a question and you give that very incomplete answer. Even your answer acknowledges to a degree the inappropriatness - but you didn't make that clear instead deferring to the negative norm of your (?) particular unit. You want to speak for "many" ATC you better have your shit straight first.

[wordstwice]

My answer wasn't incomplete and was VERY responsible because I was explaining the fact that some controllers do assign vectoring altitudes even when the aircraft is not on a vector (STAR's for example that do not have MEA/MOCA's).....its very good to know that fact especially if the original poster was/is a new pilot. Controllers that do this are making an error but thats for a different debate, my intention was simply to inform the person that ATC'ers do not always follow the rules the the letter.

At no point did I say this was standard practice even though your wrote that I did. The situations where this is happening is mostly in a Terminal environment and I will stop there as to not talk about a specific operation or their "wrong doings" on this site.

You have done what several people do on this site and turned what was meant to be a helpful response to provide some insight or information and turned it into something personal. You have reminded me why I shouldn't bother to try and pass information to people on this site.

[parrot_head]

I would argue that the use of an MVA while an aircraft is not on vectors is neither illegal nor irresponsible. For any given section of airspace, there are a number of altitudes available. Namely the MOCA, MEA, MSA, 100 mile safe, and MVA's. From that list, the CARs and MANOPs allows us to select, and use, the lowest suitable IFR altitude for that specific section of airspace.

For controllers, the requirements for the use of an MVA are that the MVA has to apply to the airspace in question and that the radio coverage in that airspace is adequate. So provided those requirements are met, why can't we use the MVA? And yes, if I am assigning the MVA, I am taking responsibility for terrain clearance and in the case of a comm failure, I would expect the pilot to climb to the next suitable IFR altitude, whatever that may be.

[cyeg66]

We've got a bevy of MVA's published for our entire terminal so those are the only altitudes that matter in our neck of the woods. MEA's, MOCA's, who gives a shit about all that stuff?!?

[gcanuel]

Thx all for the info!

Wordstwice I do get your point. Thanks for bringing that up.

Have fun all