Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
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- Fresh Prince of King Air
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Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
When an airport underlies an airway or a transition area but is not inside a class E control zone, how come clearance isn't given out of controlled airspace via the GNSS ## approach? Is it because the missed would bring you back into controlled airspace?
Also how does is work for approving a visual approach in this case? I have been cleared for a visual but should they just be clearing me out of controlled?
Thanks
Also how does is work for approving a visual approach in this case? I have been cleared for a visual but should they just be clearing me out of controlled?
Thanks
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
I'm surprised no one has answered this one.Fresh Prince of King Air wrote:When an airport underlies an airway or a transition area but is not inside a class E control zone, how come clearance isn't given out of controlled airspace via the GNSS ## approach? Is it because the missed would bring you back into controlled airspace?
Also how does is work for approving a visual approach in this case? I have been cleared for a visual but should they just be clearing me out of controlled?
Thanks
If the airport is in uncontrolled airspace you need a clearance out of controlled airspace, "via an approach" or "in the vicinity of". Unless this airport is reporting weather I am not sure how they would approve a visual as they can't know if the weather limits are sufficient. In this case a contact would work.
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
You can't be cleared for a visual approach to a field in uncontrolled airspace; and for the same reason I think you can't be cleared for a contact approach there either. Can you?
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
For a contact approach, there is no requirement for any "reported weather" conditions. It is up to the pilot to ensure that they can carry out the approach with the required 1 nm vis and the request for the contact is considered confirmation that those conditions exist.
As for issuing a visual approach, there is no restriction on whether the airport is controlled or not. You just need the weather, and if your uncontrolled airport has an AWOS and the weather is sufficient, you're home free. The only restriction with uncontrolled airports is that we cannot clear another aircraft for a visual approach behind you, even if he(she) has you in sight. (new rule...stupid).
As for issuing a visual approach, there is no restriction on whether the airport is controlled or not. You just need the weather, and if your uncontrolled airport has an AWOS and the weather is sufficient, you're home free. The only restriction with uncontrolled airports is that we cannot clear another aircraft for a visual approach behind you, even if he(she) has you in sight. (new rule...stupid).
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
What are you basing this answer on?photofly wrote:You can't be cleared for a visual approach to a field in uncontrolled airspace; and for the same reason I think you can't be cleared for a contact approach there either. Can you?
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
When I asked for a visual approach at an uncontrolled field, ATC said they couldn't approve visual approaches. Perhaps that was a weather thing (not available on field) but it was clear-and-a-million so it didn't occur to me.
What would it mean to be cleared for a visual approach in uncontrolled airspace anyway? No control is available there, and no clearance is either required or possible since no separation services are provided to any traffic.
What would it mean to be cleared for a visual approach in uncontrolled airspace anyway? No control is available there, and no clearance is either required or possible since no separation services are provided to any traffic.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
As I pointed out in my first answer, if weather is not available we can't clear you for a visual approach. A contact would do in this case. As for a visual approach in uncontrolled airspace, the OP asked about being cleared out of controlled airspace, not being cleared for an approach while in uncontrolled airspace. It may seem like semantics but there is a huge difference in our world between the two. If you are at 9000 feet 40 west of CZBF (uncontrolled below 125) and ask me for an approach I will reply, "you are in uncontrolled airspace, descent for Bathurst is at your discretion, the minimum IFR altitude with 25NM is 3600 feet." I will tell you about any know traffic and then send you on your way. If you are arriving instead at CYCH (underlies controlled airspace - 2200ft) from say Moncton, I will say "cleared out of controlled airspace via an approach at Mirimachi" If you ask for a visual I can't approve it as there is no wx for there but I would approve a contact if asked. The difference between the two is the while you are in controlled airspace you can maneuver for the approach that was cleared or approved. What you do once you enter uncontrolled airspace is of no consequence to me. Of course if you miss on an instrument approach at CYCH, the missed approach brings you back into controlled airspace, so this would be protected for vis a vis a subsequent arrival or overflight.photofly wrote:When I asked for a visual approach at an uncontrolled field, ATC said they couldn't approve visual approaches. Perhaps that was a weather thing (not available on field) but it was clear-and-a-million so it didn't occur to me.
What would it mean to be cleared for a visual approach in uncontrolled airspace anyway? No control is available there, and no clearance is either required or possible since no separation services are provided to any traffic.
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
So if there is weather info but the airspace isn't controlled (are there any such aerodromes?) you can clear me for a visual approach? i.e. "cleared visual approach runway 08" and not just "cleared out of controlled airspace for an approach"?
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
As I stated in my first answer, if the airport is in uncontrolled airspace, and you are in controlled airspace, you need a clearance out of controlled airspace, ie: "ABC is cleared out of controlled airspace". This can be the ambiguous "via an approach" or "via the visual 08 approach" or "in the vicinity of". 99% of the time I will clear you out "via an approach" and then approve a contact/visual if asked and I am able. As for an airport in uncontrolled airspace that reports weather - Bathurst CZBF comes to mind. There are probably others elsewhere.photofly wrote:So if there is weather info but the airspace isn't controlled (are there any such aerodromes?) you can clear me for a visual approach? i.e. "cleared visual approach runway 08" and not just "cleared out of controlled airspace for an approach"?
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
The question that's in the thread title still hasn't been answered, as far as I can tell. Kevenv, you refer me to previous posts, but you don't answer the ambiguity.
If you're in controlled airspace and the airport isn't - and if weather is available - can you be "cleared for a visual approach"? I understand that you can be cleared "out of controlled airspace via a visual approach", but I'm not asking about that.
If you're in controlled airspace and the airport isn't - and if weather is available - can you be "cleared for a visual approach"? I understand that you can be cleared "out of controlled airspace via a visual approach", but I'm not asking about that.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
What part didn't you see or understand from my last post?photofly wrote:The question that's in the thread title still hasn't been answered, as far as I can tell. Kevenv, you refer me to previous posts, but you don't answer the ambiguity.
If you're in controlled airspace and the airport isn't - and if weather is available - can you be "cleared for a visual approach"? I understand that you can be cleared "out of controlled airspace via a visual approach", but I'm not asking about that.
"if the airport is in uncontrolled airspace, and you are in controlled airspace, you need a clearance out of controlled airspace, ie: "ABC is cleared out of controlled airspace...". This can be the ambiguous "via an approach" or "via the visual 08 approach" or "in the vicinity of"
Sorry but I can't make it any clearer than that.
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
You can't get clearance for an approach if the airport isnt controlled; simply because it isn't controlled... haha
If you are flying in Northern Canada somewhere and are in class A airspace and there are no airways below you, and you want to get into an airport somewhere below you; the controllers job ends once you are below 180. You can go loop de loops and circle for whatever and even pick your own runway providing you broadcast it on some sort frequency.
If you are flying in Northern Canada somewhere and are in class A airspace and there are no airways below you, and you want to get into an airport somewhere below you; the controllers job ends once you are below 180. You can go loop de loops and circle for whatever and even pick your own runway providing you broadcast it on some sort frequency.
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
Thanks BEFAN5. That sums it up perfectly! My bad for not being as succinct.BEFAN5 wrote:You can't get clearance for an approach if the airport isnt controlled; simply because it isn't controlled... haha
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
Aha, I see now. Confusion ended. Thanks.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
Of course you can get an approach clearance for an airport that isn't controlled. You have to! Unless you cancel IFR you need approach clearance for every approach into any airport.
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
No you don't. You only need a clearance for the portion of the flight that's in controlled airspace. Your clearance out of controlled airspace might be via an approach, but as Befans pointed out, you can leave controlled airspace well before an approach would start, and no cleareance is required thereafter.Of course you can get an approach clearance for an airport that isn't controlled. You have to! Unless you cancel IFR you need approach clearance for every approach into any airport.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
This is not true.square wrote:Of course you can get an approach clearance for an airport that isn't controlled. You have to! Unless you cancel IFR you need approach clearance for every approach into any airport.
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
So despite all the explanations above from a controller and other pilots, you jump in with this? Seriously?square wrote:Of course you can get an approach clearance for an airport that isn't controlled. You have to! Unless you cancel IFR you need approach clearance for every approach into any airport.
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
This will all make sense to everyone once they review their airspace classifications.
I can take off from any airport I want on an IFR flight, and land at any airport I want without ever being given a clearance, or cleared for an approach providing all of my flight is conducted in uncontrolled airspace. ATC has no control of class G airspace.
I can take off from any airport I want on an IFR flight, and land at any airport I want without ever being given a clearance, or cleared for an approach providing all of my flight is conducted in uncontrolled airspace. ATC has no control of class G airspace.
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
Oh yes that's true actually, my mistake. I was thinking of uncontrolled airports with airways overhead.
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
I think the original question is because people often forget that there is a difference between, uncontrolled airspace and an uncontrolled airport.
You can have an uncontrolled airport within a class E control zone that is only an MF. In this case you could be cleared for "an approach" without being told "cleared out of controlled via an approach". There is no tower to switch too, only mandatory. Perhaps that is the confusion?
You can have an uncontrolled airport within a class E control zone that is only an MF. In this case you could be cleared for "an approach" without being told "cleared out of controlled via an approach". There is no tower to switch too, only mandatory. Perhaps that is the confusion?
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
So another question about leaving controlled airspace, especially up North. When 'cleared out of high level controlled airspace' are you still required to to proceed direct to your destination before you are through FL180 or can you head for an initial fix on an approach, unless you're 'cleared out of controlled airspace in the vicinity of' or 'cleared out of controlled airspace via the approach of your choice'? It's been a topic of conversation for as long as I can remember flying IFR and I've heard different things. Usually we just wail till we're through FL180 then do as we see fit once cleared of controlled airspace.
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
Where was the last placed you were "Cleared to?"FL280 wrote:So another question about leaving controlled airspace, especially up North. When 'cleared out of high level controlled airspace' are you still required to to proceed direct to your destination before you are through FL180 or can you head for an initial fix on an approach, unless you're 'cleared out of controlled airspace in the vicinity of' or 'cleared out of controlled airspace via the approach of your choice'? It's been a topic of conversation for as long as I can remember flying IFR and I've heard different things. Usually we just wail till we're through FL180 then do as we see fit once cleared of controlled airspace.
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
The last place he was cleared to was "out of controlled airspace" - hence his question.
Re: Cleared out of Controlled vs Cleared for the Approach
Yes, he was cleared out of controlled airspace. But he was also told at some earlier point in time "cleared direct C###". If I am going to turn my plane away from that point, my gut feeling tells me, I better tell the man on the ground.
Cleared out of controlled airspace to me means go down. You can't clear Class A airspace by turning left or right. You can only clear it by going down (or up, but I'm not willing to try climbing that high in my plane). When a controller tells me that I am cleared out of controlled airspace, I interrupt that to descend.
Cleared out of controlled airspace to me means go down. You can't clear Class A airspace by turning left or right. You can only clear it by going down (or up, but I'm not willing to try climbing that high in my plane). When a controller tells me that I am cleared out of controlled airspace, I interrupt that to descend.